Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

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Traveller in Time
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Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#1 Post by Traveller in Time » 31 Jul 2014 20:28

Just read this;

Reality Update About Crowd Funding, TIME II And Future Albums

I´m very happy to see that we have so much dedicated fans that would be willing to pledge and be a part of funding a studio for Wintersun, so I could make the next Wintersun album without it taking another 10 years again.

I´ve been thinking about this Kickstarter/Pledge crowd funding thing for a while and I´m very confident now that there is enough of you guys that would help us raise the money for the Wintersun studio! This would give me the freedom to make music efficiently and nonstop. It would eliminate lot of the problems I´ve struggled with all my life and still continue to struggle everyday. For example right now I need a studio to reamp guitars for TIME II. And not just any studio, my own studio where I can craft my sounds exactly like I want them. 3rd party studios have never worked for me and I´ve never gotten satisfactory results for the insane prices they charge.

I live in a small shitty apartment building and I have neighbors. It is very very hard to work like this. I can´t record vocals, I can´t practise my singing, I can´t record guitars, I can´t record guitars even with modelling amps, because the electricity is so bad in this shitty building so I get lots of interference, I even play and practise the electric guitar acoustically without an amp 99% of the time in my home, I can´t record drums or basically any acoustic instruments, I don´t have the room or cool space for a big computer farm which is a must for the orchestrations for the next album (the place is too small and hot even for the one computer I have), I can´t mix properly, ´cause the room is so bad and there´s always ambient noise in and outside the building. That´s why I usually turn my sleeping rhythm around and mix at nights, but that causes problems in my everyday life. I can´t do pretty much anything properly in this situation. Building a professional studio for Wintersun would erase all this and give us the freedom to make music nonstop. It would upgrade our album sound significantly and most importantly speed up the album making process significantly. This would even raise our live game. With proper preproduction, able to tweak our live sounds and setup properly we would sound pretty incredible live. We would also be able to rehearse more and that would allow us to be able to play live more often and come to places where we normally have not been able to come. The studio would allow us to have more time for everything.

But the problem is this. I have a record deal with Nuclear Blast. If I would do a Kickstarter with a downloadable album for example, they would come with lawyers and take % share (more than half) away from the money that is your money meant for the Wintersun studio and the album production. Would you even want to pledge if Wintersun didn´t get 100% of the money you´ve pledged for the album production? Then our management would take their % share away. Then there´s taxes of course. The Finnish government would take something like 40% away. This would leave me nothing. I would be totally screwed. I´ve been trying to have a discussion with Nuclear Blast about crowd funding, but they are totally freaking out. They see the crowd funding as a threat to their business and they would rather see Wintersun dead, than me doing a crowd funding. I think this would not hurt them at all, only benefit them, but they cannot see the big picture of Wintersun doing well. They actually told me point blank that I should just stop making music and they will never release Wintersun from the contract. It´s really like this, because they can´t or won´t loan me enough money to build a studio and fund an album, they don´t want other people (the fans) to fund it either… unless they get a crazy big cut of the funding (for doing absolutely nothing).

This is the way a record deal works: The label gives an advance to make an album. This is a loan and they will recoup every penny back from the record sales. The reason why TIME I&II has taken so long to make (and still is taking long to finish TIME II), is because I haven´t gotten enough advances (money) to make these complex albums. Not even close. So I´ve been struggling all these years and sacrificed everything to make these albums. I have never really made any money from Wintersun. All my money has gone to album production, but you can guess who have made tons of money from Wintersun. The point is that I need my own studio to make the future albums, but Nuclear Blast won´t be able to loan enough money to make that happen and then they won´t allow me to do a crow funding campaign either that would make it happen. And even if Nuclear Blast would be able to loan me the money for the studio, our management would take their share of that money and I would get only part of the money, but I would still have to pay back 100% to Nuclear Blast from the record sales. So I would actually lose big chunk of the album production money straight away, which makes no sense at all. And then there´s the taxes. So there´s no point of taking these “loans” either.

This all is stressing me out very badly and it´s slowing my workflow. I´ve got enough technical problems to deal with making these albums. I just want the freedom to make music, but I guess it is what it is. Honestly, I feel like I´ve signed a deal with the devil and I´m just a slave in the system.

I´ve got probably 5 long albums worth of new insanely good material! And there´s no filler material at all! The music is much more refined, much more advanced in arrangement/composition/productionwise. It´s diverse and beautiful, heavy, chaotic and exploring different styles&themes and some new dimensions I feel no band has explored before… The stuff is simply on another level, in a different universe than the debut album and the TIME albums combined. I wrote the TIME albums around 2006 and before, that was a lifetime ago. Think of the stuff I´ve written ever since to this day! And I just keep on writing, I feel like I´m on fire. The music is just flowing out of me. I´m so excited about all this new music and I can´t wait to start recording and sharing it with you… BUT I can´t without a studio, that´s the problem…

Jari

p.s. Should have stayed working in the post office!
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

Perse
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#2 Post by Perse » 31 Jul 2014 22:43

Was about to post it, too. I don't know what to think of this. I understand that the situation is frustrating for the band, especially Jari's living and working situation.
But other bands signed by NB manage to release big productions as well (Blind Guardian, Nightwish and Dimmu Borgir come to mind) and get (apparently) sufficient support. Some of them also take a comparatively long time to release albums (Blind Guardian, Symphony X, Dimmu Borgir (?) without getting these problems.
Don't know why this shouldn't be the case for Wintersun. Perhaps there is another side to it, who knows?
But if this is all correct than it is extremely sad and a shame for the label (especially the "you should stop making music" and "we'd rather let the band die than support them" part)

Edit: I read it again and I began wonder why he signed to a major label like Nuclear Bast if he knows that he needs independency to be productive?
Sounds also kinda strange that he considers the material he is writing right now his best, but keeps on working on the Time II material. I could imagine that this is frustrating as well. But I can also understand the label if they don't want to spend more money on a project that was in the making for almost 10 years, especially if the musician is not convinced by his own work.

Perse
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#3 Post by Perse » 01 Aug 2014 15:24

Nuclear Blast postet a statement about the issue on their facebook page.
Hey everyone,

we are aware of Jari's recent statement on his current situation and business experiences with Nuclear Blast regarding the most anticipated "TIME II" album. We highly appreciate the strong reactions this statement has caused in the metal community as it once more shows how much people care about their fellow metal heads and especially the musicians that go through many hardships to give us what we all enjoy the most: A good blast of METAL

We also have always been metal fans at heart and we still strive for the same goal we have since the formation of Nuclear Blast 27 years ago: To support our artists in the best way possible and to get the music everybody deserves out to our fans worldwide.

This being said the business side of music can often be rough and especially with a project as extensive as the TIME series compromises have to be found to make an album both beautiful and feasible to all parties involved - the musicians, the fans and the label. This process includes many things that should not be discussed in public as debates sometimes get heated and misunderstandings occur, but we take great pride in the relationship with our artists until this day.

So be assured that we all love Wintersun as much as you do - nobody at Nuclear Blast wants to see them gone and we are working together with Jari and his management to find the optimal solution for his concerns.

Stay true,
Nuclear Blast

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Lord Borbak
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#4 Post by Lord Borbak » 02 Aug 2014 05:16

What an obnoxious, pompous, entitled bitch. :roll:
Proudly, without God, I conquer!

Traveller in Time
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#5 Post by Traveller in Time » 03 Aug 2014 20:04

i am in doubts, too

Jari was alwaysw whining when making Time 1. And then this "hey we release time in two parts, because it is too mighty" and now he still has to do a lot of recording and mixing? So he wasn't that honest to his fans, too

On the other side i don't know why NB is not allowing him this fundraising. Is it that dangerous?
Or why they don't give Jari the money, i mean, Wintersun is some kind of cash cow, so there invests will be returned.
But of course amazon and EMP are really playing with hard strategies and cheap prices.
But has this buisness become this hard to put so much pressure on such talented guy?
How much and ghow beautiful albums could have been out by wintersun if Jari could concentrate just on music......
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

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t.a.j.
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#6 Post by t.a.j. » 04 Aug 2014 08:26

Under socialism: not a problem.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Angus
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#7 Post by Angus » 31 Aug 2014 09:24

Lord Borbak wrote:What an obnoxious, pompous, entitled bitch. :roll:
Because he wants to be able to make music properly?

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Lord Borbak
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#8 Post by Lord Borbak » 08 Sep 2014 00:08

How can you continue to have the same production/general problems for 10 years? And he's whining because the label refused to fund the construction of his own studio?

Sorry but the man's a joke. It's always this to blame or that. When it's not computer problems it's his neighbors and shit shitty appartment. Or the label. Or the direction the wind is blowing... Many many artists of smaller or equal stature managed to release bombastic records with pristine production values, with less money and label support, and he's the only one who cannot? C'mon. And didn't he say once that both Time albums were already recorded and would be released some months apart? Whaht happened there?

The guy's a clown and he's spending his free time wanking instead of you know... writing music...

Also, this, this a thousand times :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://lairofthebastard.blogspot.co.uk/ ... e.html?m=1
Proudly, without God, I conquer!

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Angus
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#9 Post by Angus » 08 Oct 2014 21:36

The guy's a clown and he's spending his free time wanking instead of you know... writing music...
He actually wrote at least 5 albums worth of material since he wrote Time. I never understood why people are so presumptuous towards Jari.

Anyway, here's an update.
WINTERSUN HEADQUARTERS CROWDFUNDING SURVEY RESULTS

We are very honored with all the support you guys would be willing to give us! Thanks for all the likes and shares. This has been our biggest Facebook post to date! We hope all the “likes" were sincere and you would really support us when the push comes to shove. There´s some doubts and questions about this project, which is understandable, but all questions would be answered when we would launch the campaign. We are planning to do many videos, which would explain all the perks in detail, the motivation for this funding and our goals and plans.

SURVEY RESULTS:

First 24-hours: 6522 likes, 269 696 people reached

Day 2: 7216 likes, 303 744 people reached

Day 3: 7618 likes, 315,264 people reached

After a week: 8150 likes, 325,760 people reached. And just wow! Over a thousand comments.

Right now we are on the fence and a bit worried whether we would succeed. It´s very close, but this is a very ambitious project and the goal is set very high. We are still figuring out all the costs and the budget for this project, but thanks to all of you guys we are starting to get a clearer picture what could be possible. This will require a lot of planning and work from us and a lot of support from you guys. We can only make this happen together!

We were hoping to get at least 10000-12000 likes, because that is the minimum of how many supporters we would need behind this project for us to reach the goal and succeed! So we just need around 2000-4000 supporters more and we´re good! Easier said than done, right? 8000 supporters would not be enough, but it´s a very good start! But we believe reaching these remaining supporters is very much possible based on these numbers:

- Our over 300000 Wintersun Facebook followers
- My personal Facebook almost 5000 friends + over 13000 followers
- All the shows and tours we´ve played and how many people have come to see us (many shows sold out)
- Millions of Youtube views
- Wintersun ST sales which are now over 50000 world wide
- TIME I sales, which are now over 40000 world wide (CDs, digital & vinyl)

Finland alone bought over 5000 TIME I CDs. Thank you Finns! Germany and US were our next biggest supporters. Thank you to everyone all over the world who bought TIME I!!! But as you know, this album cost a hell of a lot of effort&time&money to make and we make very little from the CD sales. We barely even made even. But even if only 1/4 who bought TIME I would support us now, this dream would become a reality. So we know you´re out there! We just need to get all your attention!

ABOUT CDs

We saw some people asking for CDs. This was expected. After carefully thinking about whether to include CDs and vinyls into the campaign we have decided to include them, but we would have to include them only along with our digital “Killer Package”. Let me elaborate…
We can buy CDs from Nuclear Blast for a fair price and sell them to you by ourselves, but only a limited amount. That´s fine though, because we wouldn´t be able to handle big amounts of CDs by ourselves anyways. And we would still make very little selling CDs even by ourselves. The shipping and handling costs are just crazy. We simply don´t have the proper resources. So it would take a lot work and time, which we´d rather spend on making music. I´m sure you guys want that too, right? We think it´s better to let big boys at Nuclear Blast to sell the CDs. They have proper resources and the years of expertise.

If this campaign would succeed we would buy the limited amount of CDs from Nuclear Blast is offering us. We would sign them all and we would offer them in the campaign along with digital package. If we would include the CDs on this campaign as separate items, we would never be able to reach our goal, because the CD perks would eat our “Killer Package" sales and then no one would get the album, because the campaign would fail. And we don´t want that, right? We appreciate it a lot, if you buy our CDs, but we make very little profit with them.

PERSONAL OPINION

Here´s my personal opinion about CDs. Although this might not be wise of me to state publicly as it probably will hurt our own CD sales, but I wanna be blunt and transparent here with you guys. I don´t believe in CDs anymore, but this is just my personal opinion. They are still nice and I understand how some people still like them. Nuclear Blast makes really beautiful CD packages, especially the Mediabooks, but everyone has their own preferences. Personally I like my music listening all digitally nowadays. Straight from the computer or from my phone with quality headphones, my mixing monitors or with my mini Genelecs, which I love. But I don´t like mp3 quality. It´s ok for casual listening and mobile phones (if it´s at least 320kbps), but otherwise I would rather listen to high quality downloadable files (wavs) exactly how the album was mixed, mastered and recorded. And I think bands should offer this option instead of CDs or at least along with the CDs and mp3s. I don´t even own a CD player anymore, haven´t owned one in years. Non of my computers don´t even have a CD player. Well I have the external Apple USB CD/DVD player, but I only use it maybe once a year because of the necessity for some rare software installations, like East West sample libraries and such... But even those are now shipping with hard drives and lot of the software companies are only selling downloadable versions nowadays. Times are changing...

For example, I just actually bought Devin Townsend´s new Z2 CD, but I would have rather bought a high quality digital download straight to my computer. When the Z2 CD drops from my mailbox, I´m going to rip it into my computer immediately and on my phone and then I´m going to put the CD away into my CD drawer to rot forever. Kinda pointless process. Just waste of materials and energy. And I would rather watch a digital booklet on my display and read the lyrics in full screen while listening to the music rather than from a small printed booklet, which doesn´t look as beautiful and sharp as full screen graphics/photos. Even vinyl covers doesn´t look as good & sharp. But this is just my personal opinion and preference, which has changed over the last years. I use to love CDs. I´ve bought many CDs, but CDs are dead to me in my personal music listening. My vision for digital listening experience doesn´t just stop there. I´m visioning interactive animated graphics digital booklets and seeing the artwork coming alive (like the parallax effect). Maybe even some sort of lyrical videos or beautiful photo slideshows along with the lyrics for every song, while listening from your computers, iPads and phones... These sort of booklets and a digital packages is what I want to make in the future. And I think labels and artists should take a note! But in the end it´s the music that matters.

THE PACKAGE

This digital package we have planned for you would be unique. It contains a lot of exclusive materials. This would be your chance of a lifetime to support us directly for the first time and make the Wintersun Headquarters dream come true and really free us to make music without boundaries and step up our game. I´ve been working my whole life towards this goal, ´cause I know I can make some pretty good albums, if I get the chance... Who am I kidding, some of the best albums there ever has been! I have insanely good material already for many albums, that I´m really excited about, but I just can´t do them with my current resources. Sorry, but I have my limits. I need a proper studio of my own to make these big albums a reality. So we need you guys to really get behind our “Killer Package”. We promise you the package is insane and you would love it! Let´s just say it would tie up all the loose ends and make the circle complete!

SAUNAGATE

We saw some complaints about “luxury items”. Like how the fans would be buying us TVs, couches, fridges and saunas... The fact of the matter is that no one would be buying us anything. The fans would buy (pre-order) a product for themselves, a killer TIME II package with insane goodies + the other perks we would offer. But in this case the fans would be supporting the band directly for a change and they would know where their money is going. This is a win win situation for the fans and the band. It´s a rare opportunity for all of us! We need to make the best out of this chance that we have!

I´m not a “bling bling” guy, I don´t need much, except maybe when it comes to music. I don´t even need a sauna. My skin is a bit sensitive, because of the cold and dry air of Finnish winters, but in Finland saunas are pretty much a default in every house (even in every apartment in apartment buildings) and they don´t cost much. They are part of the culture. It would be more for the band guys after hard day of rehearsals anyways. It was funny how some people who aren´t even fans were so pissed off about it. Some people sadly still don´t seem to understand what crowdfunding is. It is not a charity, there is no donations. In Finland that would be actually illegal. Also I would be spending all my money for this studio as well and not just the crowdfunded money and the band guys would be investing in the studio as well.

I´m very passionate about music and I have to admit that I want the best gear to make the best productions, I´m sure you all want that too, right? Or do you really want mediocre or just simply bad Wintersun productions? I know you don´t. Also with better gear I get much faster results. With mediocre/bad gear I keep working for as long as I need to push the results that I need. This was the case recording the TIME albums. I didn´t have good enough gear, computers and the studios I needed, so I had push everything from the gear I had and that took a lot of extra time and effort to get the best results, years in fact. And in many cases I still had to compromise a lot. Do you really want your Wintersun albums compromised or do you want them with the best production possible?

Now I pretty much have some of the best studio gear already. I´m really happy with my studio monitors, Mac Pro and my software (when Cubase isn´t crashing ). I´m pretty much set already, except for the studio space. It´s actually kinda stupid that I have this great studio gear, but not a studio for them. A place where they were ment to be and shine. And besides, I own a TV, a fridge, a bed and other stuff already and I live comfortably in Helsinki. This house+studio wouldn´t even improve my standard of living. For starters I would have to move in the middle of the forest away from Helsinki and I would have to do a lot of house work on my own in and outside, like plow the snow in winters etc… and be responsible for everything. But this would improve my “standards of recording and making albums” conditions immensely and that´s the whole point! So all these complaints were a bit hilarious.

CONCLUSION

This crowdfunding is a tricky thing, but I like it, because it´s all or nothing. It´s risky, but if it works, it´ll be epic! You have a vision, a dream and you need to reach a certain goal to be able to make the dream a reality. It´s up to the fans and supporters to decide if we are worth it. If we don´t reach our goal, we won´t be able finish TIME II and any of our other future massive album projects, which are just waiting to be recorded. We just can´t make big albums like this without our own studio. If we would set the goal too low on this funding we would make lots of money for sure, but it would be pointless, because without enough money we wouldn´t be able to build the studio and fulfill all the perks for you guys. That would be even more devastating. So it´s all or nothing.

We still believe that this campaign could be succesful when done right. We believe 100% in our “Killer Package" perk and that all of you would go crazy about it! There are many exclusive items in this package you cannot get from anywhere else. And of course this digital package would not be the only perk we have to offer. There would be many other cool perks too, but we need to put our focus on this main perk and get everyone´s support behind it.

Also we need to figure out some other back up options as well to and ensure the success of this campaign. For starters we have already booked several shows for next year to be able to lower the crowdfunding goal a little bit to minimize the risk. But when and if we launch this campaign, we are going to need all your support. Not just buying a perk, but sharing and spreading the news all over and getting your friends and families to support us as well. This is important! We need our own "Wintersun army" to make this thing happen.

We are not giving up on this dream, but we need more supporters! We´ll make this happen somehow and we want to make these big album projects a reality! Without you guys it´s not possible! Thanks everyone for the interest, we are living in interesting times! There are still some things and obstacles we need to figure out, before we can rush into this heads first, but we´ll keep working hard and keep you updated about our next steps! Thanks for the attention! Stay tuned!

Jari & the Wintersun boys

p.s. And one of the perks will definitely be a TIME II pre-listening session at the finished studio and a sauna party! Who´s coming?
Edit: Okay I skimmed through that Lair of the Bastard thing and the biggest pile of shit is this:
The first batch of songs for Wintersun's debut were written in 1996, and the album didn't come to fruition until 2004. I understand you were working with Ensiferum at the time, but Ensiferum has always been Toivenen's band, not yours (as evidenced by the fact that the music sounds pretty much exactly the same regardless of your involvement), and it really just shows that you've always taken eons to write anything. Five albums have been written since 2006, when you claimed to have written Time? Yeah okay, I believe that about as much as I believe in the legend of the toilet fairies.
Wintersun didn't take 8 flipping years to write. Most of the songs were written shortly before 2004. The songs that were written in the 90s were written for Immemorial, the band that Jari was in before Ensiferum. Several years passed between when Jari wrote the songs for Immemorial and when he wrote the rest of Wintersun. Here's proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJL0ToVI170

Traveller in Time
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Re: Wintersun vs Nuclear Blast

#10 Post by Traveller in Time » 09 Oct 2014 00:26

I will support Jari. And i don't know why people are bitching about his plans. They just can leave him alone, nobody is forced to support or understand him.

On the other hand many other bands can handle his situation and still make good stuff. For Example Frosttide - Awakening (if you like Wintersun check them out) Of course Wintersun is state of the art music, if you want to call it so, but every band started with small steps.
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

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