New Nokturnal Mortum

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Slaya
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New Nokturnal Mortum

#1 Post by Slaya » 26 Dec 2009 23:04

"The Voice of Steel" has been released today.

And it has to be the fucking best Metal record made in the last 5, dare I say, 10 years!!!!!

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Listen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ZzqWhvOVA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3Bm_cNkt1g

Most songs bear a huge Jimi Hendrix/Clapton/Pink Floyd/Deep Purple influence - I love it!
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Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#2 Post by NDS » 28 Dec 2009 13:01

I have to check that one out. I've heard it's really good!
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#3 Post by Skyclad » 30 Dec 2009 21:01

I've listened to a few songs. Who'd have thought NM would adopt Ameircan Blues music? :lol:
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#4 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 04 Jan 2010 21:34

For some reason I ended up googling this band. I have to admid that I did not know them, but after reading the results I know for certain I wont listen to their album.

In this inteview the band admits to playin national socialistic black metal, engages in terrorism and tells that skinheads shouldnt beat up white people.

http://www.firegoat.com/eng/?id=3&d=16

Their singer Vargoth has participated in a number of projects wich includes Temnozor (a Russian band signed to Hakenkreuz-records), Warhead (a band that released an album called Aryan Nation's Rebirth) and a band called Aryan Terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knjaz_Varggoth

Personally I think this band shouldnt be promoted on this forum. Even though this forum is quite liberal towards almost everything - thats why I like this place - I do believe that promoting selfprlaed neo-nazis crosses a line that shouldnt be crossed.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#5 Post by t.a.j. » 05 Jan 2010 08:22

Still as musically irrelevant as I remember them. They used to be a Dimmu Borgir Rippoff and are now just another meaningless pagan band. The whole nazi shit is bad enough, but if they at least made decent music...
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#6 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 05 Jan 2010 21:01

Well, I personally wouldnt listen to a nazi-band even if their music was okay. But yeah, you are right. In addition to the stuff I pointed out above, I admit to having found the youtube-songs quit bad when I iistened to them last week.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#7 Post by Guilherme » 05 Jan 2010 21:23

lol, joke topic?

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#8 Post by Slaya » 06 Jan 2010 23:15

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:For some reason I ended up googling this band. I have to admid that I did not know them, but after reading the results I know for certain I wont listen to their album.

In this inteview the band admits to playin national socialistic black metal, engages in terrorism and tells that skinheads shouldnt beat up white people.

http://www.firegoat.com/eng/?id=3&d=16

Their singer Vargoth has participated in a number of projects wich includes Temnozor (a Russian band signed to Hakenkreuz-records), Warhead (a band that released an album called Aryan Nation's Rebirth) and a band called Aryan Terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knjaz_Varggoth

Personally I think this band shouldnt be promoted on this forum. Even though this forum is quite liberal towards almost everything - thats why I like this place - I do believe that promoting selfprlaed neo-nazis crosses a line that shouldnt be crossed.
Now, it is true that NM held rather radical views at that time, but please, read their newer interviews like this one and you will see their state of mind has changed quite a bit since then.

The various side projects of the singer, which you mentioned, are except of Temnozor not really active anymore.
At this point I have to state that Temnozor are (1) Not a side project and (2) totally NOT a National Socialist or political band by any means.


Regarding the music; may I ask what exactly bothered you about especially the new album? To me their sound always has been very original and creative and their first releases are rightfully regarded as classic Black Metal (Check Metal Archives - "Lunar Poetry" - 100% out of 5 reviews, for example).
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#9 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 08 Jan 2010 21:18

At this point I have to state that Temnozor are (1) Not a side project and (2) totally NOT a National Socialist or political band by any means. Not a side project and (2) totally NOT a National Socialist or political band by any means.
Of course they (Temnezor) are nazi's. Five minutes worth of googling is enough to find that out.

1) They are listed on the website of Pagan Front, which is an organisation which supports nazi-bands, fanzines and labels online.
2) They are signed to Hakenkreuz records.
3) They dress like they are on a Kristalnacht-celebration: http://www.metal-archives.com/images/2/ ... _photo.JPG
4) Two members played in or for the band Aryan Terrorism
5) One of the bandmembers playes in a band (Woods Of Fallen) with a swastika in their logo
6) The quote below speaks volumes. This quote comes from the context of the band talking about the future of their country, the white race, and judeo-christian religions.
it's not an appeal to write articles about «idiotic religion». It's the appeal to real, precisely planned actions. I guess, those who need it, already understood what I'm talking about... and others simply are of no interest to me. Praise Russia! Hail the White Race! Support the forthcoming War!
(quote within its context: http://www.rusmetal.ru/vae_solis/Temnozor.htm)

In conclusion I would say: bands like Temnezor, Nokturnal Mortem and a fair share of the people who follow their example should be brought to a court of law and be locked away for a very long time.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#10 Post by Joost » 08 Jan 2010 23:25

Well, technically it is an ad hominem from my side, but it strikes me a bit that the biggest defender here of Temnozor as 'not a Nazi band' (and earlier, the same here about other bands), also is a member of NSBM-oriented groups at last.fm.

In the liner notes of one of Temnozor's albums, it says
Temnozor music is for our racial comrades worldwide only. Every submen buying or distributing this record does contribute to his future annihilation. 14/88
I encourage people who don't know what 14/88 means (but I'm sure at least Slaya does) to look this up on the Interwebs.

You can only go so far claiming bands are 'not Nazi' without losing credibility. Really.

The way I see it, Temnozor and Nokturnal Mortum are extreme-right bands with views that strongly lead towards National Socialism. Their lyrics aren't directly political, but still clearly written from the point of a view of their underlying philosophy, which is inseparable from their political views. As far as I am concerned, that makes these bands Nazi bands.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#11 Post by t.a.j. » 08 Jan 2010 23:41

If the lastfm page is any indicator, I suppose we have a nazi.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#12 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 08 Jan 2010 23:50

I encourage people who don't know what 14/88 means (but I'm sure at least Slaya does) to look this up on the Interwebs.
I agree, although I have to point out (for those lurking this topic) that the results of the search, as well as some of the links in this topic, are not suited for viewing at work or at school.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#13 Post by Slaya » 09 Jan 2010 04:47

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
At this point I have to state that Temnozor are (1) Not a side project and (2) totally NOT a National Socialist or political band by any means. Not a side project and (2) totally NOT a National Socialist or political band by any means.
Of course they (Temnezor) are nazi's. Five minutes worth of googling is enough to find that out.

1) They are listed on the website of Pagan Front, which is an organisation which supports nazi-bands, fanzines and labels online.
Yes they are. But The Pagan Front is a music community, and the ideologies of the bands listed there vary from folkish heathens with clear distance from politics to outspoken NSBM bands like "Der Stürmer" (this one being utter crap, by the way)
2) They are signed to Hakenkreuz records.
No, they are not. Some ten years ago that label released Temnozor's debut album for the European market.
3) They dress like they are on a Kristalnacht-celebration: http://www.metal-archives.com/images/2/ ... _photo.JPG
None of the above are members of Temnozor. This is what they dress like: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2143/213 ... 74bebb.jpg
4) Two members played in or for the band Aryan Terrorism
This is not true. Saturious did session keyboards for them, but he even played live for Conquest, touring with Sonata Arctica last year. So what?
5) One of the bandmembers playes in a band (Woods Of Fallen) with a swastika in their logo
There's a swastika in Temnozor's logo, too. For the same reasons (see below).
6) The quote below speaks volumes. This quote comes from the context of the band talking about the future of their country, the white race, and judeo-christian religions.
it's not an appeal to write articles about «idiotic religion». It's the appeal to real, precisely planned actions. I guess, those who need it, already understood what I'm talking about... and others simply are of no interest to me. Praise Russia! Hail the White Race! Support the forthcoming War!
(quote within its context: http://www.rusmetal.ru/vae_solis/Temnozor.htm)
Old interview. Really, it's simple as that : Temnozor is a band without a stable lineup, and so comes that people of very different opinions played in it throughout its history.

Temnozor wrote:Neither KRODA nor TEMNOZOR are NSBM for the obvious stylistic and conceptual reasons,[...]

(1) Different members of TEMNOZOR' naturally embrace different political views (oftenly dissimilar to each other). It has nearly no relation to TEMNOZOR' as a band, because lyrical concept of TEMNOZOR' obviously has no relation to modern politics (read the lyrics). That's pretty simple. Anyway, whoever would I (or any other metal musician) be: extreme leftwing autonome ecofascist, orthodox christian monarchist, esotheric hitlerist or just an average liberal office worker - who said we necessary owe explaining anything to anyone? I am pretty convinced that almost everything musician currently wants to say to his auditory could be found in the booklet of his latest album.

2) TEMNOZOR' is using sunwheels because these are the symbols used by our ancestors thousands of years before the first "antifa" idiot was thrown away from the infected womb of his mother to trample the Earth and to question our rights for the inherent symbols of eternity.
Would you like to know more?

By the way, it saddens me to see I am being called a "Nazi" instantly because of the bands I listen to - you won't find any hatemongering or overt NS bands among my favourites.

My only point from start of this discussion, actually, was:
Nokturnal Mortum are no longer NSBM by any means.
Temnozor are a band in which political opinions of the members dpn't have any relation to the band's concept at all, because the basic concept is that of a patriotic Russian Pagan Metal band.

Ah, just to get one thing clear right ahead: I totally don't support "88" but I don't see what's bad about "14" by any means. This far I will go to explain my point of view.
But you cann keep on calling me "nazi" and "racist" while I will stick to listening music filled with cultural identity and pride from all over the world. :wink:

Let the flaming begin...
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#14 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Jan 2010 11:05

I did make my statement conditional. I know people who listen to those bands and make fun of their ideologies. But it seems that at the very least you would qualify as a racist by your own statement:
Slaya wrote: Ah, just to get one thing clear right ahead: I totally don't support "88" but I don't see what's bad about "14" by any means. This far I will go to explain my point of view.
But you cann keep on calling me "nazi" and "racist" while I will stick to listening music filled with cultural identity and pride from all over the world. :wink:
14 refers to the "fourteen words ""We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children" attributed to David Lane, whom you can google.
Without going into ethics, the simple problem with this is that there is no such thing as "the white race". There are reproductive groups which are more or less closed (by physical boundaries: people in france rarely had children with people in india; by social selection: the european aristocracy was supposed to only reproduce among themselves; physical boundaries work fine, social boundaries don't). People used to interbreed within those groups for some time, then some other people came as refugees, conquerors or maybe just travelers who didn't want to travel anymore and together, these formed to new reproduction group, interbreeding until another contact with another group happened. This has been going on since the dawn of man. Groups being isolated for some time, then intermixing for some time, then isolated again, as political and ecological situations changed and people adapted.

You could not retrace your genetic line just one of those groups, but would have to include many. And for there to be a white race, there would had have to be some clear lack of genetic intermixing, one group interbreeding and never intermixing with any other group, preferably for the last 2.5 million years.

Now if you want to talk about culture. You probably think along the lines of nationalism, with a nation being a group of people with shared language, culture and values. Unfortunately those groups are very small. Historically, again owning to physical and social barriers, cultural and linguistic uniformity was highly localized. From one valley to the next, the language and customs could be completely different. Only by cultural intermixing - that is talking to one another and liking the way others did things - did certain practices disseminated among larger groups. For almost all so called nation-states, the political unity came first. And under the pressures of that unity, over many centuries and only with the rise of central bureaucracy did something like a national identity develop. Once the genie was out of the bottle, other people tried the other way round: to create a national identity in order to achieve political unity (as was the case in Germany). So what we know today as cultures are already the result of processes of cultural leveling and unification that has been going on for a very long time. This kind of cultural intermixing and unification is a very normal process and it is indeed essential to what culture is.

National cultures are moments in a very long process of change, nothing about them makes them more justified than any other moments in this process. It becomes much more productive if instead of thinking of cultures as deeply connected to certain groups of people, we should view singular cultural practices as the relevant units to focus upon. Why? Because culture are not monolithic. There is no inherently german culture, there are many specific cultural practices practiced by the (political) group of germans, which at any given time may be called "german culture". But for one time to the next, different practices will make up this culture. Furthermore, it is these practices that are transmitted when groups intermix culturally. Thus, we can find certain practices among many groups and some only among very small groups. And of course, "groups" need not be national or racial or even local groups. Headbanging and devil horns, listening to slayer and having mosh pits, playing electric guitars in certain way, having long hair, spikes and leather,... are all cultural practices that are practiced by many people across almost all national, racial and ethnic borders. "Metal culture" in a way shows all the problems and dynamics that the idea of culture entails: disconnected, yet unified, both local and global, providing additional identities beyond the national ....

Thus the 14 words are a simplistic and idiotic statement. Let's examine it again:
"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children"

"Our people" is meaningless bullshit until Lane makes clear who is in that group and who isn't. And when he does (white people, dummass) he talks about something which does not in any meaningful way form a people. He uses cheap rhetoric (our! not theirs! We are we! They are they! It's as simple as including the audience, who will do all the excluding of whoever the audience wants to exclude at that moment by themselves) in order to make people feel as involved, when they are really are not.

"Secure the existence" As I explain there is no "white race". What Lane aims at is not to continued existence of some people, since this people doesn't exist. Again, the rhetoric is interesting. He uses a very defensive term ("secure") and evokes the notion that it is a life or death situation. The very existence (of the white race) is threatened and needs to be secured. It is only implied that this can be by any means. After all, it's "us or them" and "they" are threatening "our" existence.

"a future for white children" It is interesting to ask why he talks about children and the future here. Of course, "white children" are racially pure children. They are also "our" children, "their" children don't matter here. The sense seems to be racially eugenic. It's not that future children might live under terrible circumstances or anything like that. It's that they might not be "white". This is not a statement about caring for children. That's just the rhetoric to make it sound nice and bring family values in (this is a conservative american speaking, after all). It's a statement about racial purity being in need of protection.

But there is no racial purity. We are all genetic mongrels, with so many different tribes having clashed, conquered married, raped, abducted each other over 2,5 million years that to assume that some incidental political units prevalent in that very short time span of modernity or even - and that's a stretch right there - recorded history (some 5000 years) to have some deep and essential meaning, racially or culturally determining a people forever, seems very silly and short sighted to me.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#15 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Jan 2010 12:46

Slaya, you can write a million of paragraphs explaining how a band who has a swastika in their logo is not a nazi-band, but I would become concerned with your mental well-being. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck.

You can stick your hear in the sand for all that I care, but if you do, at least be a man and say so and don't hide behind nonsense like 'that was a long time ago' or 'we dont use a swastika because of the nazis, we use it because of the meaning it had a thoudands of years ago'. That sort of Wir-haben-es-nicht-gewust-reasoning was what got the German people into problems in the first place.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#16 Post by Beren Ercharmion » 09 Jan 2010 13:29

Slaya wrote:you won't find any hatemongering or overt NS bands among my favourites.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Statement of the year.

If I put your top artists into Metal Archives basically all of them have listed stuff like "white pride", "aryanism" or "NS" as their lyrical themes.

But maybe you can invent some nice fairytales about them beeing such nice guys nowadays and only the past members beeing Nazis for us as well.

And I'm so sick of people claiming they're usuing a swastika only because
these are the symbols used by our ancestors thousands of years before
Well, it may have been used by our forefathers, sure, but nowadays this symbol has a clear meaning, due to what happened in the 3rd Reich. And if you use it you make clear on what side your standing on.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#17 Post by Slaya » 09 Jan 2010 18:10

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Slaya, you can write a million of paragraphs explaining how a band who has a swastika in their logo is not a nazi-band, but I would become concerned with your mental well-being. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is a duck.

You can stick your hear in the sand for all that I care, but if you do, at least be a man and say so and don't hide behind nonsense like 'that was a long time ago' or 'we dont use a swastika because of the nazis, we use it because of the meaning it had a thoudands of years ago'. That sort of Wir-haben-es-nicht-gewust-reasoning was what got the German people into problems in the first place.
Do you condemn bands like Skyforger for this aswell? Really, symbols that are thousands of years old shouldn't be made into merely political symbols today, but still it happens. If you forbid neo-nazis to use the swastika, they will find other symbols, destroy their old meaning and take them for their cause.
Well, it may have been used by our forefathers, sure, but nowadays this symbol has a clear meaning, due to what happened in the 3rd Reich. And if you use it you make clear on what side your standing on.
This is the saddest statement of them all - Maybe you just can't understand because you are not into paganism and the symbols therefore have no other meaning to you. But don't say it can't have a different meaning for others!
Slaya wrote:
you won't find any hatemongering or overt NS bands among my favourites.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Statement of the year.

If I put your top artists into Metal Archives basically all of them have listed stuff like "white pride", "aryanism" or "NS" as their lyrical themes.
What I said was only supposed to mean that I don't listen to "Fucking kill jews and niggers, gas chamber blablabla" or singing about third reich nonsense and crap.
I did make my statement conditional. I know people who listen to those bands and make fun of their ideologies. But it seems that at the very least you would qualify as a racist by your own statement:
I won't quote all you said because of the length, but here's my reply:

1. I am aware of the facts you wrote here. I didn't say I totally embrace the 14 words as a doctrine, I just said I couldn't find anything bad about them. I do not find them to be racist, in the meaning of mocking the heritage of non-whites, and I think ther eis truth in them.
2. I am aware we are genetical mongrels. But there are some characteristica which are like a red thread we can follow back to our ancestors. I do not think it should be cut off.
3. I am certainly not a nationalist, you are wrong there. As there is not "THE GERMAN" or "THE RUSSIAN", as was told in third reich for propaganda purposes, and as you said nations are only artificially created groups of people, I think, when I think of "people" rather in European, or if you will, indo-germanic terms.
4.Your taking apart of Lane's statement is not really saying anything. If you analyse a statement this way, you will find things in any statement of anyone which that peron never meant to say in any way. As controversial as Lane is - this statement does not mean any more than how he has made it. David Lane has written a lot of stuff I don't support, and I don't follow his ideology, but he has written SOME great articles which make you see things from a different point of view. By the way, that is the reason I do not feel limited to bands singing about certain lyrical topics but I also do like to hear different points of view.
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#18 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Jan 2010 19:38

This is the saddest statement of them all - Maybe you just can't understand because you are not into paganism and the symbols therefore have no other meaning to you. But don't say it can't have a different meaning for others
The meanings we give to symbols are abstract concepts. By that I mean that they are not something you can touch: they exist in our minds. The association of a symbol and thought or a meaning is agreed upon by the majority, and is not something that can be changed by a minority-group. If you choose to be part of a minority-group and choose to be ignorant of the meaning of the swastika-symbol - in this case the murder of seven million Jews, although I might suspect that you doubt that ever happened - then there is little hope that this topic will be able to change your mind.
What I said was only supposed to mean that I don't listen to "Fucking kill jews and niggers, gas chamber blablabla" or singing about third reich nonsense and crap.
The fact that the lyrics of the songs aren't explicit doesn't change anything about its meaning. An example. Imagine that I want to write a song about a girl.

First attempt:

I want to fuck you in the ass
(right now)
I want to fuck you in the ass
I want to fuck you in the ass
uh huh, I want to fuck you in the ass
I want to fuck you....

Second attempt:

It's late in the evening; she's wondering what clothes to wear.
She puts on her make-up and brushes her long blonde hair.
And then she asks me, "Do I look all right?"
And I say, "Yes, you look wonderful tonight."

In both cases the meaning of the song is exactly the same, although it is expressed in entirely different wordings.

So you can argue all you want, you have already made clear where you stand from your taste in music and your inability to distance yourself from nazi-ism.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#19 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Jan 2010 20:10

Slaya wrote: 1. I am aware of the facts you wrote here. I didn't say I totally embrace the 14 words as a doctrine, I just said I couldn't find anything bad about them. I do not find them to be racist, in the meaning of mocking the heritage of non-whites, and I think ther eis truth in them.
That is a contradiction. "The facts I wrote here" make it clear that both "our people" and "white children" fail to refer to anything. Therefore there cannot be truth in these words. They try to refer to something, which does not exist.
Also, given that the sentence in question talks about "white children" it is certainly racist in the clear sense that it assumes that there are races.
2. I am aware we are genetical mongrels. But there are some characteristica which are like a red thread we can follow back to our ancestors. I do not think it should be cut off.
Two questions, firstly: Which ancestors? The ones that first migrated from Africa? Red thread granted, but you have that in common with everyone. Among the very long and twisted genealogy, which generation do you pick as the relevant ancestors to base race distinctions on and can you offer an argument for why you choose those and not say the generation of Mitochondrial Eve or your parents generation?
Secondly: What kind of traits are you thinking?
3. I am certainly not a nationalist, you are wrong there. As there is not "THE GERMAN" or "THE RUSSIAN", as was told in third reich for propaganda purposes, and as you said nations are only artificially created groups of people, I think, when I think of "people" rather in European, or if you will, indo-germanic terms.
So instead of THE GERMAN vs. THE RUSSIAN you have THE EUROPEAN vs. THE AFRICAN? What do you hope to gain by enlarging the group about which you assume some cultural homogenity? Presumably, the group of the germans are more culturally homogenic than the group of the europeans. Language might be your pointer there.
Do you think in genetic or biological rather than cultural terms?
4.Your taking apart of Lane's statement is not really saying anything. If you analyse a statement this way, you will find things in any statement of anyone which that peron never meant to say in any way.
I am commenting on the rhetoric because the statement is first and foremost rhetorical. While it has the grammatical shape of a statement, it is of course an appeal (As evidenced in the "We must"). And seeing the rhetorical structure might keep one from trying to fill in the lacking arguments and interpretations.
but he has written SOME great articles which make you see things from a different point of view. By the way, that is the reason I do not feel limited to bands singing about certain lyrical topics but I also do like to hear different points of view.
I don't know any articles by Lane and frankly, if he uses the category of race, I don't care. He has then and there made such an intellectual blunder that I am not inclined to take him seriously.

And yes, being confronted with a variety of points of view are good. One should hear many of them (of the reasons why I tend to be against censorship of nazi discourse), but something is not true of even worthwhile just because it is a point of view. Once you have listened and seen, you should form an opinion. And while one certainly is justified to oppose right wing politics on ethical reasons (start with Auschwitz and work your way from there), I put much more value on the theoretical qualities of some point of view. That is: Is it internally consistent and is it consistent with what we know about the world due to our epistemically best practices (that is mostly science)?

And racism, the very concept of race fails this test. And since one cannot build a good theory on a rotten foundation, any point of view based on the concept of race is simply false. It would be false, even if it's adherents would not go and torch buildings, beat up people and commit genocide, even if it would lead them to only do good and kind things. It is false and its not very difficult to find that out.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#20 Post by Joost » 09 Jan 2010 21:40

Slaya wrote:Do you condemn bands like Skyforger for this aswell? Really, symbols that are thousands of years old shouldn't be made into merely political symbols today, but still it happens. If you forbid neo-nazis to use the swastika, they will find other symbols, destroy their old meaning and take them for their cause.

...

This is the saddest statement of them all - Maybe you just can't understand because you are not into paganism and the symbols therefore have no other meaning to you. But don't say it can't have a different meaning for others!
As someone who is, at least somewhat, into paganism, but also who wants to have nothing to do with Nazism or right-wing ideologies, I can of course only be said about how some symbols, such as the swastika and the sunwheel, and some of the runes (such as the Oðal and Sowilo runes), have been stolen, and as a result, seem forever tainted, by right extremists. Try to be aware though, that right-extremist bands which also use swastikas, such as Temnozor, only reinforce this theft, and make the association between certain symbols and right-wing ideologies even stronger. But yes, Skyforger for me have the benefit of the doubt, definitely, because I have found no clear traces that they support any right-extremist ideology. In the case of Temnozor and Nokturnal Mortum, it's a wholly different story.

In my opinion, the only way the original meaning of those symbols can ever be restored, is if a group of pagans, and people sympathizing with pagans, is going to make a statement by using those symbols but at the same time clearly and unequivocally rejecting far-right ideologies. And if such a group arises, you can count on me supporting them. But as long as there is no sub-movement within pagan metal clearly speaking out against racism, fascism, and right wing ideologies (in all of its manifestations), though, this is not going to happen, and some symbols will forever be tainted.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#21 Post by Slaya » 10 Jan 2010 02:32

Joost wrote:
Slaya wrote:Do you condemn bands like Skyforger for this aswell? Really, symbols that are thousands of years old shouldn't be made into merely political symbols today, but still it happens. If you forbid neo-nazis to use the swastika, they will find other symbols, destroy their old meaning and take them for their cause.

...

This is the saddest statement of them all - Maybe you just can't understand because you are not into paganism and the symbols therefore have no other meaning to you. But don't say it can't have a different meaning for others!
As someone who is, at least somewhat, into paganism, but also who wants to have nothing to do with Nazism or right-wing ideologies, I can of course only be said about how some symbols, such as the swastika and the sunwheel, and some of the runes (such as the Oðal and Sowilo runes), have been stolen, and as a result, seem forever tainted, by right extremists. Try to be aware though, that right-extremist bands which also use swastikas, such as Temnozor, only reinforce this theft, and make the association between certain symbols and right-wing ideologies even stronger. But yes, Skyforger for me have the benefit of the doubt, definitely, because I have found no clear traces that they support any right-extremist ideology. In the case of Temnozor and Nokturnal Mortum, it's a wholly different story.

In my opinion, the only way the original meaning of those symbols can ever be restored, is if a group of pagans, and people sympathizing with pagans, is going to make a statement by using those symbols but at the same time clearly and unequivocally rejecting far-right ideologies. And if such a group arises, you can count on me supporting them. But as long as there is no sub-movement within pagan metal clearly speaking out against racism, fascism, and right wing ideologies (in all of its manifestations), though, this is not going to happen, and some symbols will forever be tainted.
Nokturnal Mortum played concerts under the banner "The swastika is not a fucking nazi sign" recently and I see there is no point in discussion about Temnozor, because you simply won't let their own statement count. By the way, Skyforger played at several Blood & Honour Festivals across Eastern Europe, as far as I know, during their early career.
That is a contradiction. "The facts I wrote here" make it clear that both "our people" and "white children" fail to refer to anything. Therefore there cannot be truth in these words. They try to refer to something, which does not exist.
Also, given that the sentence in question talks about "white children" it is certainly racist in the clear sense that it assumes that there are races.
There is no evidence for the claim that there are no "races" other than the brainwashing media and "scientific" books telling you "the differences are too minimal" - there are thousands of scientists convinced of the opposite, and basically "minor" and "major" are very flexible definitions.

Quote:
2. I am aware we are genetical mongrels. But there are some characteristica which are like a red thread we can follow back to our ancestors. I do not think it should be cut off.


Two questions, firstly: Which ancestors? The ones that first migrated from Africa? Red thread granted, but you have that in common with everyone. Among the very long and twisted genealogy, which generation do you pick as the relevant ancestors to base race distinctions on and can you offer an argument for why you choose those and not say the generation of Mitochondrial Eve or your parents generation?
Secondly: What kind of traits are you thinking?
"Out of Africa" is only a theory - it fails to really explain how the indo-aryan tribes actually emigrated from the steppes of Russia, for example, or how the Neandertalians were driven away from Europe from Homo Sapiens coming from the North.

Quote:
3. I am certainly not a nationalist, you are wrong there. As there is not "THE GERMAN" or "THE RUSSIAN", as was told in third reich for propaganda purposes, and as you said nations are only artificially created groups of people, I think, when I think of "people" rather in European, or if you will, indo-germanic terms.

So instead of THE GERMAN vs. THE RUSSIAN you have THE EUROPEAN vs. THE AFRICAN? What do you hope to gain by enlarging the group about which you assume some cultural homogenity? Presumably, the group of the germans are more culturally homogenic than the group of the europeans. Language might be your pointer there.
Do you think in genetic or biological rather than cultural terms?
Yes of course "our people" means biological terms, as nationality is a modern idea dividing the people to establish cultural homogenity - well, at least that was the original idea.
Quote:
This is the saddest statement of them all - Maybe you just can't understand because you are not into paganism and the symbols therefore have no other meaning to you. But don't say it can't have a different meaning for others


The meanings we give to symbols are abstract concepts. By that I mean that they are not something you can touch: they exist in our minds. The association of a symbol and thought or a meaning is agreed upon by the majority, and is not something that can be changed by a minority-group. If you choose to be part of a minority-group and choose to be ignorant of the meaning of the swastika-symbol - in this case the murder of seven million Jews, although I might suspect that you doubt that ever happened - then there is little hope that this topic will be able to change your mind.
Do you walk around with your eyes closed? "The many" agree on a meaning often enough because they don't know anything about the subject - how can the initial meaning be changed? The being, or person, who created the symbol thousands of years ago created a meaning, unchangeable in its truth for eternity. No matter for what purpose it is stolen. I have two enlightening examples for you:

This: \m/ hand gesture is widely agreed to be the "devil's horns" - but actually it's the "Cornuto", a sign to ward off the evil eye of black magic. Does the "abuse" in pop culture change the initial meaning? Ask an old Italian woman...


If the cover version of "Paint it Black" by Skrewdriver suddenly became more known than the original from the Rolling Stones, would this connection make the song a "Rock Against Communism" or "Racist" song? It hardly could change the intention of the musician initially creating the song and lyrics! If you know listened to the song just to enjoy it, would you then be "ignorant of its meaning" (which from your point of view I guess would lead to murder of jews again)?


Your point of view is resisitant to any knowledge apart from what the majority thinks to be the truth. Maybe you should think about that.
By the way - I, personally, do think the "Holocaust" happened - but seriously, first, "7 millions" is bullshit, while it certainly doesn't make the intention any better, but second, I do not condemn anyone for questioning the truth of the event - simply because there are so many contradicting facts. I THINK it happened, but I can't say for sure. The Allies and media told and tell a lot of shit about nazi-Germany and vice-versa.



Quote:
What I said was only supposed to mean that I don't listen to "Fucking kill jews and niggers, gas chamber blablabla" or singing about third reich nonsense and crap.


The fact that the lyrics of the songs aren't explicit doesn't change anything about its meaning. An example. Imagine that I want to write a song about a girl.

First attempt:

I want to fuck you in the ass
(right now)
I want to fuck you in the ass
I want to fuck you in the ass
uh huh, I want to fuck you in the ass
I want to fuck you....

Second attempt:

It's late in the evening; she's wondering what clothes to wear.
She puts on her make-up and brushes her long blonde hair.
And then she asks me, "Do I look all right?"
And I say, "Yes, you look wonderful tonight."

In both cases the meaning of the song is exactly the same, although it is expressed in entirely different wordings.
More argumentation leaking like a wrecked ship here - so this is the same for you: (if so, there's also even more idiocy to be found in your last post)

Kill all niggers
Pull your triggers
Kill subhumans
Jews are not humans
Put them all in the oven!

-------------------------------------------

Fatherland - Tragedies
Tragedies written in snow
Fatherland - Poetry
Poetry written in blood

Fatherland - Lonely Nights
Of coldness, of autumn, of rain
Fatherland - Razor blades
Of winter, of smoke and the pain

If the latter stands for murder of jews and minorities in your opinion, then I can't help you - because that just is not true, because it is not the musicians intention to express such things with this song, nor with any other of their songs - just as much as Immortal's "Pure Holocaust" doesn't stand for mass-murder of jews!
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And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#22 Post by Joost » 10 Jan 2010 03:01

This: \m/ hand gesture is widely agreed to be the "devil's horns" - but actually it's the "Cornuto", a sign to ward off the evil eye of black magic. Does the "abuse" in pop culture change the initial meaning? Ask an old Italian woman...
Ask a metalhead and you're likely to receive a different answer.

Meaning is all in the eye of the beholder. And moreover, meanings do change. The mere fact that there is such a thing as etymology (and that, for example, the English verb 'to check' ultimately derives, through the game of chess, to the Persian word 'shah' for king) already is undeniable proof of this fact. To old Italian women, the gesture you mentioned will have the meaning of warding off evil, but to thousands of metalheads, it is the sign of the 'devil's horns', and may also mean things such as 'kickass!'. Metalheads use this symbol, and understand each other -- there is no misunderstanding -- so by all intents of purposes, this is an actual, real, meaning of the sign. It does not necessarily nullify the original meaning, but in certain contexts (e.g. a metal concert) the newly acquired meaning precedes over the original meaning. Same with the swastika. More than just a pagan thing, it was generally considered a symbol of good luck until the early 20th century. But whichever meanings the swastika may have had originally, in almost all contexts most the generally known meaning -- the one of Nazism and everything associated with it -- precedes over it, as that is the only meaning that people are aware of, and thus the only meaning that is communicated by the symbol.

(Of course, this is all written under the assumption that message x can be said to have meaning y (among a group z) if and only if message x communicates meaning y between group z. This assumption can, of course, be questioned, but I still think it's a good working assumption.)
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#23 Post by Slaya » 10 Jan 2010 04:34

Joost wrote:
This: \m/ hand gesture is widely agreed to be the "devil's horns" - but actually it's the "Cornuto", a sign to ward off the evil eye of black magic. Does the "abuse" in pop culture change the initial meaning? Ask an old Italian woman...
Ask a metalhead and you're likely to receive a different answer.

Meaning is all in the eye of the beholder. And moreover, meanings do change. The mere fact that there is such a thing as etymology (and that, for example, the English verb 'to check' ultimately derives, through the game of chess, to the Persian word 'shah' for king) already is undeniable proof of this fact. To old Italian women, the gesture you mentioned will have the meaning of warding off evil, but to thousands of metalheads, it is the sign of the 'devil's horns', and may also mean things such as 'kickass!'. Metalheads use this symbol, and understand each other -- there is no misunderstanding -- so by all intents of purposes, this is an actual, real, meaning of the sign. It does not necessarily nullify the original meaning, but in certain contexts (e.g. a metal concert) the newly acquired meaning precedes over the original meaning. Same with the swastika. More than just a pagan thing, it was generally considered a symbol of good luck until the early 20th century. But whichever meanings the swastika may have had originally, in almost all contexts most the generally known meaning -- the one of Nazism and everything associated with it -- precedes over it, as that is the only meaning that people are aware of, and thus the only meaning that is communicated by the symbol.

(Of course, this is all written under the assumption that message x can be said to have meaning y (among a group z) if and only if message x communicates meaning y between group z. This assumption can, of course, be questioned, but I still think it's a good working assumption.)
You are absolutely right, but my point was that RoR can't claim the original meaning to become irrelevant or to perish - because to people who are aware of the origin of the swastika, for example, will first and foremost see that meaning, despite of coure being aware of the connection to NS anyway.
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#24 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Jan 2010 10:58

Still, meaning as Joost has described it, excludes that the sign used as a symbol for some concept is essentially connected to that concept. There is nothing about the swastika itself that makes it a symbol of good luck or terrible evil. So I don't see how "bringing back the original meaning" can serve as an argument to use this symbol, when the price you pay is communicating to everyone that you are a nazi. Just use some other sign to symbolize good luck or whatever.
I am aware of the "original" meaning of the swastika, its use in Buddhism and so on, but I still first and foremost assume that any westerner using it wants to communicate that she is a nazi. And so far, that has been quite reliable.

But something else:
"Out of Africa" is only a theory - it fails to really explain how the indo-aryan tribes actually emigrated from the steppes of Russia, for example, or how the Neandertalians were driven away from Europe from Homo Sapiens coming from the North.
Firstly, just a minor point about terminology: "Out of Africa" is an hypothesis. A theory is something quite different. In science a theory is a a large conceptual system, not just a single statement. "Homo Sapiens evolved in eastern Africa long before it spread around the globe" is an hypothesis.
You do not prove theories, but you can prove (some) hypothesis. If I want to prove that the cat is on the mat, I check the mat. If the cat is on it, I have proven that the cat is on the mat. The cat is on the mat. My hypothesis is proven true.
The out of Africa hypothesis is not quite as well off as that the cat is on the mat. But it is very well off, much better than its competitors. That is because the theory of mitochondrial population genetics, which is well confirmed and generally accepted among geneticists, combined with excessive empirical evidence tells us that Mitochondrial Eve, the most recent common matrilineal ancestors of all living humans can only have lived in eastern africa roughly 200.000 years ago.
That means two things:
1. Homo sapiens can only have evolved in Africa, not also anywhere else. (Because this would lead to distinctively different mitochondrial lineages, which cannot be found empiricialy)
2. Homo Sapiens came out of Africa and spread around the globe no more than 200.000 years ago.

And what is the racist counterargument to mitochondrial population genetics?
"Homo sapiens came from the north and replaced Neanderthal man"
According to the Recent Out of Africa Hypothesis (ROoA), homo sapiens migratred from Africa roughly 60.000 years ago. The Neanderthals disappeared around 30.000 years ago. Plenty of time to move around. In a circle. And come from the north.
And that would grant that it can actually be shown, that homo sapiens displaced Neanderthals coming from the north. I would like to see an argument for this.

Secondly
it fails to really explain how the indo-aryan tribes actually emigrated from the steppes of Russia
I suppose you mean the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans"]Proto-Indo-Europeans[/quote], "Indo-arian" is a linguistic subgroup of Indo-Iranian languages, which are in turn a subgroup of Indo-European languages. And Indo-Arians mostly live in South Asia and did not migrate to Russia. Proto-Indo-Europeans probably did, though. But that does not conflict with ROoA at all. Since these migrations are bronze age events. happening some 50.000 years after the ROoA migration. By then lots and lots of cultural groups had formed among homo sapiens. One of which probably were the linguistic ancestors of the Indo-European speakers.
50.000 years. Think about that for a moment. And would you use an hypothesis about what happened in ancient Rome to explain the Cold War? No, you wouldn't. You would say: Lots of stuff happened between those two events that is probably more central to the later event than the earlier event is.

Well, there you have it. Mitochondrial population genetics and some common sense. Your turn.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#25 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 10 Jan 2010 11:24

You are absolutely right, but my point was that RoR can't claim the original meaning to become irrelevant or to perish - because to people who are aware of the origin of the swastika, for example, will first and foremost see that meaning, despite of coure being aware of the connection to NS anyway.
It is simply not true that the moment someone who knows about the origin of the swastika will first and foremost acknowledge its original meaning and accept the nazi-link as a simple inconvenience. I am aware of the original meaning of the swastika, which by your reasoning means I should write hakenkreuzes all over birthday-cards to my friends. Yet I choose not to do so. Why, you ask? Because the fact that some Buddhists I never knew used it a thousand years before I was born, doesn't change a bit about the fact that the person who draws a swastika makes it very clear on which side he stands.

Communication in general is all about action-reaction, and this doesn't change when it concerns symbolism. A symbol is an extravert concept by definition: we choose to use a symbol to express a thought or idea and are able to do so because we know that the sender and the receiver agree on its meaning. Your talk about the swastika being a symbol for good luck is a fallistic argument, because the sender of any message has anticipated the response of the receiver before he sends the message.

So-one in their right minds would use a swastika to wish somebody else good luck - such a thing simply doesnt exist after WW2. A swastika has a hateful meaning, period, and explanations about it being an ancient symbol are nothing but a convenient fact you found on wikipedia that you like to throw around when people rightfully accuse you of being a neo-nazi.
Nokturnal Mortum played concerts under the banner "The swastika is not a fucking nazi sign" recently and I see there is no point in discussion about Temnozor, because you simply won't let their own statement count. By the way, Skyforger played at several Blood & Honour Festivals across Eastern Europe, as far as I know, during their early career.
Common sense dictates that if you aren't a neo-nazi, you would publicly distance yourself from nazism in all its manifestations and avoid its symbolism. Nokturnal Mortem doesn't, which says enough about them.
By the way - I, personally, do think the "Holocaust" happened - but seriously, first, "7 millions" is bullshit, while it certainly doesn't make the intention any better, but second, I do not condemn anyone for questioning the truth of the event - simply because there are so many contradicting facts. I THINK it happened, but I can't say for sure. The Allies and media told and tell a lot of shit about nazi-Germany and vice-versa.
I was actually being ironic with my remark, but irony seems to be wasted on you. Personally I feel your denial of the holocaust crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed on this forum and I wouldn't be all too annoyed by it if the mods drew their conclusions from that. You do know that what you just wrote is reason to get you arrested in every European country, right? Lets hope that it happens sooner rather than later and that someone teaches you some common sense before you turn eighteen and become part of the real world.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#26 Post by Slaya » 10 Jan 2010 18:42

@ t.a.j. : I have to quit the discussion about this topic at this point - I still say that I do not hold ROoA to be the ultimate truth, but I se you know a LOT more about genetics than I do, and I think I could not hold a candle to you in an ongoing discussion about genetics. Sorry.
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
You are absolutely right, but my point was that RoR can't claim the original meaning to become irrelevant or to perish - because to people who are aware of the origin of the swastika, for example, will first and foremost see that meaning, despite of coure being aware of the connection to NS anyway.
It is simply not true that the moment someone who knows about the origin of the swastika will first and foremost acknowledge its original meaning and accept the nazi-link as a simple inconvenience. I am aware of the original meaning of the swastika, which by your reasoning means I should write hakenkreuzes all over birthday-cards to my friends. Yet I choose not to do so. Why, you ask? Because the fact that some Buddhists I never knew used it a thousand years before I was born, doesn't change a bit about the fact that the person who draws a swastika makes it very clear on which side he stands.
The swastika is not a buddhist symbol for luck - it is a symbol known to almost every culture in the world, and is a symbol for the sun and for the movement of life through time and seasons.

Communication in general is all about action-reaction, and this doesn't change when it concerns symbolism. A symbol is an extravert concept by definition: we choose to use a symbol to express a thought or idea and are able to do so because we know that the sender and the receiver agree on its meaning. Your talk about the swastika being a symbol for good luck is a fallistic argument, because the sender of any message has anticipated the response of the receiver before he sends the message.
But the persons I want to receive the message when I, personally, and the pagan metal bands who use it aswell, should know and understand the meaning. If others don't understand, it leads to misunderstandings, but it's their loss of wisdom, not mine.

So-one in their right minds would use a swastika to wish somebody else good luck - such a thing simply doesnt exist after WW2. A swastika has a hateful meaning, period, and explanations about it being an ancient symbol are nothing but a convenient fact you found on wikipedia that you like to throw around when people rightfully accuse you of being a neo-nazi.
This is not true. How can a symbol be "hateful"? And common, there IS still another meaning to it - go to a Chinese or other Asian store and count the swastikas on packages of food, jewellery, etc.
Nokturnal Mortum played concerts under the banner "The swastika is not a fucking nazi sign" recently and I see there is no point in discussion about Temnozor, because you simply won't let their own statement count. By the way, Skyforger played at several Blood & Honour Festivals across Eastern Europe, as far as I know, during their early career.
Common sense dictates that if you aren't a neo-nazi, you would publicly distance yourself from nazism in all its manifestations and avoid its symbolism. Nokturnal Mortem doesn't, which says enough about them.
It seems you are rather leftist - you always want people to distance themselves from everything politically remotely "incorrect".
By the way - I, personally, do think the "Holocaust" happened - but seriously, first, "7 millions" is bullshit, while it certainly doesn't make the intention any better, but second, I do not condemn anyone for questioning the truth of the event - simply because there are so many contradicting facts. I THINK it happened, but I can't say for sure. The Allies and media told and tell a lot of shit about nazi-Germany and vice-versa.
I was actually being ironic with my remark, but irony seems to be wasted on you. Personally I feel your denial of the holocaust crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed on this forum and I wouldn't be all too annoyed by it if the mods drew their conclusions from that. You do know that what you just wrote is reason to get you arrested in every European country, right? Lets hope that it happens sooner rather than later and that someone teaches you some common sense before you turn eighteen and become part of the real world.
What the...??? did you actually READ what I wrote? I did NOT deny the Holocaust in any way! I only said that a "fact" or point of view should not be protected by laws, because the ultimate truth can never be found. The number of people murdered is still up to discussion, which you can easily see by yourself because you made 7 millions out of generally agreeed upon 6 millions. I do not know how many died and I do not care, because it makes no difference to me in the wrongdoing of the event. I doubt it has already come so far that questioning a law or its inforcement can get me arrested. And you are plain stupid if you don't see the HUGE part that propaganda played on BOTH sides during and before WW2.
DO YOU GET IT? KILL JEWS = EVILEVILNONONO NAZI = ME NOT
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#27 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Jan 2010 19:08

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that if you want to find out the truth, listening to scientists, whose knowledge seeking project has given us the computer, is a much better option than listening to political propagandists or other laymen.
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They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#28 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 10 Jan 2010 20:26

This is not true. How can a symbol be "hateful"? And common, there IS still another meaning to it - go to a Chinese or other Asian store and count the swastikas on packages of food, jewellery, etc.
Fine, move to China and wear your precious swastika on the sleeve of your right arm. Perhaps you could even stretch out your right arm and point it to the sky and make people believe that you are just politely greeting them.
It seems you are rather leftist - you always want people to distance themselves from everything politically remotely "incorrect".
As a matter of fact, I have always voted for a right-wing party - but obviously not extreme right. The fact that I am a lefty in your eyes kinda goes without saying, because compared to your extremist ideals everyone else can be regarded as more left than you are.

As for the holocaust... there have been numerous examples of revisionists being put to trial - especially during the seventies and eighties - where certain statements that weren't denying the holocaust but were trivialising it, such as contributing the official documentation of the holocaust to propaganda, were seen by the judge as denying the holocaust all the same.

But perhaps you want to doubt the wise men of our justice-system too?
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#29 Post by Slaya » 10 Jan 2010 20:48

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
This is not true. How can a symbol be "hateful"? And common, there IS still another meaning to it - go to a Chinese or other Asian store and count the swastikas on packages of food, jewellery, etc.
Fine, move to China and wear your precious swastika on the sleeve of your right arm. Perhaps you could even stretch out your right arm and point it to the sky and make people believe that you are just politely greeting them.
This is so stupid I won't say anything more about that. Go watch TV and drink Coca Cola.
It seems you are rather leftist - you always want people to distance themselves from everything politically remotely "incorrect".
As a matter of fact, I have always voted for a right-wing party - but obviously not extreme right. The fact that I am a lefty in your eyes kinda goes without saying, because compared to your extremist ideals everyone else can be regarded as more left than you are.
What "extremist ideals" do I hold?

As for the holocaust... there have been numerous examples of revisionists being put to trial - especially during the seventies and eighties - where certain statements that weren't denying the holocaust but were trivialising it, such as contributing the official documentation of the holocaust to propaganda, were seen by the judge as denying the holocaust all the same.
And you don't find it suspicious when 30 years after a war the winner sentences people to prison for questioning the 100% truth of his wartime propaganda? There is no "documentation" in war. And I am neither a revisionist because of political opinion (because there is no purpose for me in presenting nazi germany as better than it was because it is not my idea of a perfect society) Therefore I am in no way "trivialising" the event itself. I am just criticising that WW2 is presented like Star Wars in the public media and general public opinion. But there seems to be no point in this discussion, for in your opinion the majority is always right.If 70 years ago you would've been a German, I guarantee you would have been the first to shout "Sieg Heil" in Nuremberg. And if not, I guess based upon your logic they would have rightfully sentenced you to prison or death for not agreeing with National Socialism. Because the "wise men" are right. Think about it.

But perhaps you want to doubt the wise men of our justice-system too?
Of course I do.
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#30 Post by Ornendil » 13 Jan 2010 13:28

Joost pretty much answered the whole swastika discussion in his secound post. If you, in the west, are to use the swastika for any other purpose than communicationg that you're a nazi, it must be very clear that you are not. Not just from what you say then and there, but also from whatever actions you have done in the past. If you can be remotely connected to nazism or similar ideologies, and you use the swastika, you are either:

a) supporting nazism or similar ideologies
b) supporting paganism and being damn horrible at communicating it
c) not very bright

Generally, people will assume it's a.

So basically, if you wish to reclaim the swastika, take clear distance from nazism or any similar ideologies. Otherwise, you'll fail horribly.
If you have facts, bang the facts, if you have witnesses, bang the witnesses, if you have neither, bang the table.

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#31 Post by Slaya » 14 Jan 2010 01:23

Ornendil wrote:Joost pretty much answered the whole swastika discussion in his secound post. If you, in the west, are to use the swastika for any other purpose than communicationg that you're a nazi, it must be very clear that you are not. Not just from what you say then and there, but also from whatever actions you have done in the past. If you can be remotely connected to nazism or similar ideologies, and you use the swastika, you are either:

a) supporting nazism or similar ideologies
b) supporting paganism and being damn horrible at communicating it
c) not very bright

Generally, people will assume it's a.

So basically, if you wish to reclaim the swastika, take clear distance from nazism or any similar ideologies. Otherwise, you'll fail horribly.
The problem is, that nazism obviously HAS some similarities in mindset to paganism - so controversity cannot be completely avoided if one wants to stick to the traditional ways. But that's okay for me, because neither paganism nor metal music are about submission to the wrongs and rights of others. :wink:
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#32 Post by t.a.j. » 14 Jan 2010 08:12

Slaya wrote: The problem is, that nazism obviously HAS some similarities in mindset to paganism - so controversity cannot be completely avoided if one wants to stick to the traditional ways.


Which ones?
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#33 Post by Lord Borbak » 14 Jan 2010 19:16

On topic : Their new album is absolutely stunning. I've somewhat stopped caring for any sort of Black (except for Darkthrone) and Folk metal, but I decided to check out this one out of curiosity since I liked their previous one, Mirovozzrenie. And I got to admit that in the filed of Folk-sih/pagan Black Metal, this is incredibly well done. And quite surprising at times, like that long Pink Floyd-ish break during the 2nd song.

Oh and Slaya is such a dirty Nazi.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#34 Post by Slaya » 17 Jan 2010 09:17

t.a.j. wrote:
Slaya wrote: The problem is, that nazism obviously HAS some similarities in mindset to paganism - so controversity cannot be completely avoided if one wants to stick to the traditional ways.


Which ones?
The ones that cause discussions like the one in this thread.
NS adopted many ancient pagan values and mindsets into its own concept and context.
This is why some people find it so hard to seperate it from each other again.


@ Lord Borbak:

Thank you so much for your contribution - at last someone cares about the music and writes ontopic - thank you aswell for your comment. :wink:
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#35 Post by t.a.j. » 17 Jan 2010 09:43

Using a swastika is a similarity in mindset?

No, really, give me a list.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#36 Post by Slaya » 17 Jan 2010 11:53

I will, please tell me first if you have read the Snorri Edda so I can see if to use it as reference or not.
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And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#37 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 17 Jan 2010 12:56

This is why some people find it so hard to seperate it from each other again.
Oh, so now it's the fault of the people who see the swastika, instead of the nazi who uses it?

Very thoughtful. :roll:
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#38 Post by t.a.j. » 18 Jan 2010 00:45

Slaya wrote:I will, please tell me first if you have read the Snorri Edda so I can see if to use it as reference or not.
Some of it. But explanations would probably be better.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#39 Post by Joost » 18 Jan 2010 11:40

Slaya wrote:I will, please tell me first if you have read the Snorri Edda so I can see if to use it as reference or not.
I have, and I wonder, are you going to reference the Thrall/Jarl/Karl story?
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#40 Post by Slaya » 20 Jan 2010 12:01

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
This is why some people find it so hard to seperate it from each other again.
Oh, so now it's the fault of the people who see the swastika, instead of the nazi who uses it?

Very thoughtful. :roll:
Even by writing but "duhhhbnlblvblvclbodkskg.lnbdlg" I couldn't outdo the dumbness and meaninglessness your posts embody, so that's okay for me. You obviously do not WANT to understand. :wink:

To everyone else: Sorry, I've been busy and I'm going to explain my thoughts later, maybe t.a.j. or someone else can start a new discussion in the Coffee Shop so this thread can go back ontopic to music discussion eventually?
Where the lazure skies tear the hearts apart
And as leaden ice they remain deep inside your eyes
Where the morning burns starlight ashes to dust
All my songs I´ve thrown to the seven winds

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#41 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 21 Jan 2010 20:33

Slaya wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
This is why some people find it so hard to seperate it from each other again.
Oh, so now it's the fault of the people who see the swastika, instead of the nazi who uses it?

Very thoughtful. :roll:
Even by writing but "duhhhbnlblvblvclbodkskg.lnbdlg" I couldn't outdo the dumbness and meaninglessness your posts embody, so that's okay for me. You obviously do not WANT to understand. :wink:
I appreciate your effort to offend me, but it wont work. I'll leave the final judgement about the sensibility of my posts up to the 300+ people who have watched this topic without replying. If anybody cares to debate or reject any of the things that I wrote throughout these posts, I would be happy to read their replies.
To everyone else: Sorry, I've been busy and I'm going to explain my thoughts later, maybe t.a.j. or someone else can start a new discussion in the Coffee Shop so this thread can go back ontopic to music discussion eventually?
I understand that you are busy, but I don't see the added value of closing this conversation now that we are about to stop scratching the surface. So please, take the time you need to properly put your thoughts to words and write them down here when you happen to find the time. I will keep this topic on the top regions of this page for you.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#42 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 28 Jan 2010 20:33

I notice this topic slipped to the bottom, so I am puttng it up again.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#43 Post by t.a.j. » 28 Jan 2010 20:42

A dutiful heart is a decoration onto death.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#44 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 28 Jan 2010 21:44

Good will come to those who wait.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#45 Post by Lord Borbak » 29 Jan 2010 23:54

I think it's safe to yell PWNED!
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#46 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 02 Feb 2010 21:21

No, I don't think it is safe to say Slaya is pawned. He would admit that he's pawned if he never replied to this topic, but in his defence, he did say he needed some time to formulate his thoughts. And I can imagine that it takes some time to justify the modern-day use of the swastika in its original intended use by explaining the similarities in perception between nazi's and pagans through an Icelandic book about Norse mythology. So let's grant him some time and allow him to come up with something nice.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#47 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 07 Feb 2010 13:10

*bump*
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#48 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 13 Feb 2010 13:14

*bump*

I appreciate Slaya taking so much time to come up with a really good story.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#49 Post by Palantyre » 13 Feb 2010 14:42

Please drop the stick and step away from the horse carcass.
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Re: New Nokturnal Mortum

#50 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 13 Feb 2010 15:38

Nah, he's not a carcass... He'll be back eventually to work on his post.
Last edited by The Rider Of Rohan on 16 Feb 2010 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
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