WTF if going on in Oslo?

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Baby_Kürsch
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WTF if going on in Oslo?

#1 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 23 Jul 2011 03:20

According to the American news Oslo Norway as suffered a couple terrorist attacks today. Thats fucking crazy. Why Oslo? Anyone have any idea?
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#2 Post by ThePKH » 23 Jul 2011 08:13

Apparently single gunman, Norwegian, 32 years old, extreme right opinions. First set up a couple of bombs downtown Oslo and then went on killing spree on Utöya island outside Oslo. 87 dead, most of them at the labor party youth summer camp. Makes one pretty much speechless.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#3 Post by Flame of Udun » 23 Jul 2011 10:24

Well, this is..surreal.
So it goes.

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#4 Post by Belgarion » 23 Jul 2011 14:16

Unbelievable. A single guy going on a killing spree and shooting 84 kids to death. Again I'm ashamed of the the outrageous nature of humans.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#5 Post by End Of An Era » 23 Jul 2011 15:45

eyewitnesses say there's a second gunman on Utöya. Not confirmed, though a second man was arrested at a press conference in Oslo.

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#6 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 24 Jul 2011 03:08

Been reading a bit more about this and watched a bit about it at my mothers house tonight. Just terrible. This definitely leaves me a bit speechless. Initially in the USA they had mentioned Al Qaeda (duh) several times but it seems he was a home grown terrorist. Im interested in watching the trial (if we get much of it here, I dont know what Norway is like with these thing, but the USA parades their criminals around like side show freaks) and curious as to why Norway has a no more than 21s year in prison for any crime policy. But that may not be true I haven't done any research on it yet.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#7 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 24 Jul 2011 03:49

sick,messed up shit ...
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#8 Post by Dentarthurdent » 24 Jul 2011 22:25

Paralyzed I'm staring at impossible brutality...
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#9 Post by t.a.j. » 25 Jul 2011 16:39

Do not look at him as a freak, monster or inhuman. He did what he did out of conservative convictions and it was above all a political act.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#10 Post by Andreas » 25 Jul 2011 17:56

Can you please tell me what's so conservative about killing almost 100 people in cold blood?

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#11 Post by Belgarion » 25 Jul 2011 18:23

t.a.j. wrote:Do not look at him as a freak, monster or inhuman. He did what he did out of conservative convictions and it was above all a political act.
He is a monster, no matter what his political view is. I've never really heard of anybody killing 90 kids one by one with a shotgun in cold blood before. This is the most brutal shit I've ever seen in my life. Ultra-conservatives and even ultra-fascists wouldn't commit such a heinous crime.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#12 Post by End Of An Era » 25 Jul 2011 18:28

he is no monster, he seems coherent and intelligent, not a raving lunatic. That's more scary than a monster i think.

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#13 Post by t.a.j. » 25 Jul 2011 19:10

End Of An Era wrote:he is no monster, he seems coherent and intelligent, not a raving lunatic. That's more scary than a monster i think.
That is my point.

He took the time to argue his position in a 1500 page document. He acted out of political conviction and that conviction is that western culture is betrayed and sacrificed to Islamic invasion by a politically correct, leftist establishment. It was this establishment that his actions were aimed at. In many ways, all he did was take this idea serious.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#14 Post by Andreas » 26 Jul 2011 00:42

That might be a conservative view (and I must say I understand his point), but going on the rampage like this? There's nothing conservative about what he has done, it's just sick.

And concerning his mental state: I've heard that experts said that he is not crazy or psychothic or whatever. But justifying an act like this and thinking that you are the one who should tackle this "major problem", indicates an unhealthy dose of narcissism.

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#15 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 26 Jul 2011 02:34

The craziest thing about this is how he will be out on the streets again in 21 years.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#16 Post by t.a.j. » 26 Jul 2011 13:18

Andreas wrote:That might be a conservative view (and I must say I understand his point), but going on the rampage like this? There's nothing conservative about what he has done, it's just sick.

And concerning his mental state: I've heard that experts said that he is not crazy or psychotic or whatever. But justifying an act like this and thinking that you are the one who should tackle this "major problem", indicates an unhealthy dose of narcissism.
Not intended as a personal attack on you, but there have been remarks that this man, acting out the hate patterns indigenous to a particular ideology represents of course only himself, being a maniac and all, while every time a Muslim (or back in the day, an anarchist) acts out the hate patterns indigenous to their ideology, he represents the whole of his ideological community.
Conservatism and in particular the resurgent nationalism of the last 20 years, expressed in anti-islamism as much as in homophobia, misogynism and a general attack on culturally liberal politics is as hateful and bad and as little grounded in fact and reason as Islamic (or Christian or Jewish, for that matter) fundamentalism.

To put it as clear as I can: The events in Oslo do no show that every conservative is like to go and kill people in the name of preserving western culture, nor does any other act of terrorism or ideologically or politically motivated murder, in particular Islamic Terrorism show that all the adherents to those ideas are like to do so. What it does show is how that such ideologies, both (neo)conservatism and Islam are hateful. Do not misunderstand, the quran contains as much horribly hateful drivel and glorification of violence and irrationality as the bible, if not more. But the conservative mainstream, with all its "politically incorrect" tough guy imagery is similarly hateful and about as close to the facts of the matter as bible and quran. Just go and google for 2083 - A European Declaration of Independence. Pick any idea from there and keep on googleling and you'll come across pretty mainstream political figures. It's rampant and it's dangerous.

I dislike the religion of Islam and its ideas about human life and death, but we are under no threat of being islamized. Quite the opposite. Far from European Muslims islamizing europe, Europe secularizes its Muslims. The rate of European Muslims renouncing their faith has been increasing and is higher than the secularization rate among European Christians. Similarly, the general European decline of reproduction rates is an area where European Muslims are rapidly catching up to their non-Muslim neighbors.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#17 Post by Desert_Storm » 26 Jul 2011 15:19

t.a.j. wrote: Not intended as a personal attack on you, but there have been remarks that this man, acting out the hate patterns indigenous to a particular ideology represents of course only himself, being a maniac and all, while every time a Muslim (or back in the day, an anarchist) acts out the hate patterns indigenous to their ideology, he represents the whole of his ideological community.
A good point because it's so rarely vocalized. I don't see any people screaming "Aahhh! Conservative Right-Winged Christians" like you get with the Muslims nowadays. Interestingly, a point that the gunman himself shares (in the fifty-Page thing, not the 1500 page "manifest":
"To me it's hypocritical to judge/treat Muslims, Nazis and Marxists differently. They all are supporters of hate-ideologies. Not all of them are conservative, but that doesn't make a difference (...) It's obvious that supporters of any hate-ideology will choose conservatism at a later point. (list of how many people where killed due to different religions and ideologies). ALL hate-ideologies should be treated the same!

OWTTE, quoted from a german source

Doesn't sound so queer now, does it?
What it does show is how that such ideologies, both (neo)conservatism and Islam are hateful.

I agree. However, I think you have to look at the mainstream of the followers of any given ideology to judge them. With the NSDAP, the RAF or the Al Qaeda it's quite simple to judge them as hateful, since all or nearly all of it's members are/were engaged in terroristic actions. It's not so easy with large groups like parties, coalitions, religions; because such groups tend to be highly heterogenous and interpret their shared ideology in very different ways, and some might act in a good and charitable way while others will go on and kill innocents and both will ground it on the same set of ideas.
From that point of view, it's hard to tell the conservatives that their ideas are destructive and hateful, since there's rarely any hate-crimes coming from their corner and they will outline a man like Oslo's gunman as a single maniac not representative for their group as fast as you and I would do it with such a man coming from a blind guardian /metal fan background. And you can as easily "unmask" metal as a hateful and inhuman ideology, just by looking into the lyrics of some (black) bands or listening to their announcements on stage (there are times.... but that's OT).
It's much harder for a muslim preacher these days to outline a suicide assassin or a violent father as a "single maniac not representative for their group" since I just have to open a few newspapers (let alone a Broder book) and show them such a number of accounts that there are too many of them for being not representative... And that's why I would judge Islam as a dangerous religion, as opposed to today's Christianity, even though both books contain a more or less equal (shockingly high, that is) amount of violence, as far as I've seen. On the other hand, look at the millions of peaceful Muslims... It's not so easy to make a judgement.
But the conservative mainstream, with all its "politically incorrect" tough guy imagery is similarly hateful and about as close to the facts of the matter as bible and quran.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#18 Post by Andreas » 26 Jul 2011 15:54

t.a.j. wrote:
Andreas wrote:That might be a conservative view (and I must say I understand his point), but going on the rampage like this? There's nothing conservative about what he has done, it's just sick.

And concerning his mental state: I've heard that experts said that he is not crazy or psychotic or whatever. But justifying an act like this and thinking that you are the one who should tackle this "major problem", indicates an unhealthy dose of narcissism.
Not intended as a personal attack on you, but there have been remarks that this man, acting out the hate patterns indigenous to a particular ideology represents of course only himself, being a maniac and all, while every time a Muslim (or back in the day, an anarchist) acts out the hate patterns indigenous to their ideology, he represents the whole of his ideological community.
Conservatism and in particular the resurgent nationalism of the last 20 years, expressed in anti-islamism as much as in homophobia, misogynism and a general attack on culturally liberal politics is as hateful and bad and as little grounded in fact and reason as Islamic (or Christian or Jewish, for that matter) fundamentalism.

To put it as clear as I can: The events in Oslo do no show that every conservative is like to go and kill people in the name of preserving western culture, nor does any other act of terrorism or ideologically or politically motivated murder, in particular Islamic Terrorism show that all the adherents to those ideas are like to do so. What it does show is how that such ideologies, both (neo)conservatism and Islam are hateful. Do not misunderstand, the quran contains as much horribly hateful drivel and glorification of violence and irrationality as the bible, if not more. But the conservative mainstream, with all its "politically incorrect" tough guy imagery is similarly hateful and about as close to the facts of the matter as bible and quran. Just go and google for 2083 - A European Declaration of Independence. Pick any idea from there and keep on googleling and you'll come across pretty mainstream political figures. It's rampant and it's dangerous.

I dislike the religion of Islam and its ideas about human life and death, but we are under no threat of being islamized. Quite the opposite. Far from European Muslims islamizing europe, Europe secularizes its Muslims. The rate of European Muslims renouncing their faith has been increasing and is higher than the secularization rate among European Christians. Similarly, the general European decline of reproduction rates is an area where European Muslims are rapidly catching up to their non-Muslim neighbors.
Still, the fact that a self-proclaimed christian does something like this, is far more exceptional than if he was a muslim.

I can't speak for the islam (though I know that even moderate muslims approve of extremists), but I can speak for christianity. There is no way that these crimes are even remotely justifiable. Admittedly, in the Bible, passages can be found where God gives the order to kill, but those cases are exceptional, in the sense that the Bible does not give me, as a christian, the command to kill non-christians. If we look at the two commandments that form the core of christianity (love God above all and your fellow human like you love yourself), it becomes clear that what this guy did in no way can be considered "based on (conservative) christian believes".

And I know that what you say is not personal, but I consider myself a conservative and fundamentalist christian. This means that I try to follow the two aforementioned commandments, and to be honest with you, I don't see what's so threatening about that? If an ideology does not have this two rules as its fundament, it can't be considered "christian".

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#19 Post by t.a.j. » 26 Jul 2011 16:38

Andreas wrote: Still, the fact that a self-proclaimed christian does something like this, is far more exceptional than if he was a muslim.

I can't speak for the islam (though I know that even moderate muslims approve of extremists), but I can speak for christianity. There is no way that these crimes are even remotely justifiable. Admittedly, in the Bible, passages can be found where God gives the order to kill, but those cases are exceptional, in the sense that the Bible does not give me, as a christian, the command to kill non-christians. If we look at the two commandments that form the core of christianity (love God above all and your fellow human like you love yourself), it becomes clear that what this guy did in no way can be considered "based on (conservative) christian believes".^
Here is a small part of all the violence condoned and commanded in the bible:
Genesis
6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
6:13 The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Exodus
7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies,
7:18 And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Leviticus
1:10 And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish.
1:13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Numbers
25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Joshua
24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you,

Samuel
2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them:
2:31 Behold, the days come, that I will cut off thine arm, and the arm of thy father's house, that there shall not be an old man in thine house.
2:32 And thou shalt see an enemy in my habitation, in all the wealth which God shall give Israel: and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.
2:33 And the man of thine, whom I shall not cut off from mine altar, shall be to consume thine eyes, and to grieve thine heart: and all the increase of thine house shall die in the flower of their age.
2:34 And this shall be a sign unto thee, that shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas; in one day they shall die both of them.

Mathew
5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (5:29-30) "Pluck it out. Cut it off."
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Peter
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
On the other hand, Islam recommends kindness and honorable dealings, charity towards the poor and needy and praises God for being merciful and just. From my point of view, there is plenty of horror in both books and I find little reason to praise one monotheistic ideology above another.

I would like to point out that I did not say that what he did was based on Christian believes. I spoke about political (neo)conservatism. From what I gather from his manifest, he was not much of a religious fanatic himself and openly invited "christian agnostics and atheists" into his "knightly order". Referencing Christianity is a strategy of exclusion for these people, an attempt to set boundaries around the notion of a "Christian Occident".
And I know that what you say is not personal, but I consider myself a conservative and fundamentalist christian. This means that I try to follow the two aforementioned commandments, and to be honest with you, I don't see what's so threatening about that? If an ideology does not have this two rules as its fundament, it can't be considered "christian".
I don't know what you believe in specifically, but apart from history, biology and astronomy, there are moral matters. I understand christian fundamentalism to entail that women should be subservient to men, that adulterers should be harshly punished, that a man enjoying the physical affections of another man is a horrible thing, that all non-believers are consigned to an eternity (or at least the vast majority of their existence) of the most terrible suffering, that sex outside of wedlock is horrible and that for the goal of eternal life in Christ, not earthly price or suffering is too high.
Do you subscribe to these doctrines?

And one more thing. You say that only an ideology that has "love God above all and your fellow human like you love yourself" as it's "fundament" can be considered Christian. I wonder why I should believe you when others tell me that faith in Christ, the savior is what is fundamental to Christianity and yet others insist that only taking the whole of the bible and only the whole of the bible as literal truth and the word of God is requi4red? How come you speak for what is truly Christian and not, say, the Church of Latter Day Saints? And how would I, skeptical atheist that I am, be able to distinguish those who speak for real and authentic Christianity from those who merely profess to do so? I am afraid I cannot do that. I must take people at their word and judge their beliefs by their words, not wonder about what "real Christianity" is. If I had to have an opinion, I would hazard that authentic Christianity disappeared when the first generation of Christians died and the second generation had to face the fact that Jesus lied about coming back before that generation was in the grave.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#20 Post by t.a.j. » 26 Jul 2011 17:05

Desert_Storm wrote: I agree. However, I think you have to look at the mainstream of the followers of any given ideology to judge them. With the NSDAP, the RAF or the Al Qaeda it's quite simple to judge them as hateful, since all or nearly all of it's members are/were engaged in terroristic actions. It's not so easy with large groups like parties, coalitions, religions; because such groups tend to be highly heterogenous and interpret their shared ideology in very different ways, and some might act in a good and charitable way while others will go on and kill innocents and both will ground it on the same set of ideas.
Yes? Most of the RAF's ideological supporters never hurt anyone, similarly, no majority of (ideological) Nazis just went about killing Jews. If you look at the political realities of Fascism and Soviet Communism, there was a lot of "good and charitable" action mixed in with the horrible genocides and state terror.

I think that everywhere, we find strategies of exclusion and inclusion and that cannot be help. The real question is whether the borderlines draw by some ideology are reasonable and represent actual lines of conflict instead of merely inventing them. It is for example a fact that there are many poor people and many more very poor people and there are social, economic and political power structures that produce and endlessly reproduce and worsen these divisions. Pointing out these structures and showing the poor and very poor why it is that they must suffer and toil and thus making these very structures and the people profiting from them out as their enemies can also be called hateful, but it is a healthy and good hate, a reasonable and justified hate. This is much different from hate directed and hapless Muslims out of hysterical fear of an imagined threat of "Eurabia". If for no other reason than that in one case we are talking about facts, complicated and convoluted facts, yes, but a far cry from the false assumptions and fantasies of nationalists and Islamophobs. Just have a look here: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... 711186.ece and consider that by Interpol's 2010 terrorism report, Europe saw 279 terrorist attacks, 3 of which were committed by Islamists. You saw that right, 3 out of 279. It's all hysterical panic and media manipulation.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#21 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 26 Jul 2011 18:30

spamel wrote:
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#22 Post by t.a.j. » 26 Jul 2011 19:39

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They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#23 Post by Desert_Storm » 26 Jul 2011 20:19

t.a.j. wrote:
Desert_Storm wrote: I agree. However, I think you have to look at the mainstream of the followers of any given ideology to judge them. With the NSDAP, the RAF or the Al Qaeda it's quite simple to judge them as hateful, since all or nearly all of it's members are/were engaged in terroristic actions. It's not so easy with large groups like parties, coalitions, religions; because such groups tend to be highly heterogenous and interpret their shared ideology in very different ways, and some might act in a good and charitable way while others will go on and kill innocents and both will ground it on the same set of ideas.
Yes? Most of the RAF's ideological supporters never hurt anyone, similarly, no majority of (ideological) Nazis just went about killing Jews. If you look at the political realities of Fascism and Soviet Communism, there was a lot of "good and charitable" action mixed in with the horrible genocides and state terror.
I think you know what I mean. Even if a given Nazi or RAF member didn't kill anyone, they were supporting the people who did (ideologically, materialistically, economically [in case of Nazi Germany] and so on). It is quite simple (or would you disagree?) to judge such movements/groups definite for their actions and their ideologies.
It's not so simple with larger groups like supporters of a certain religion or political movement in a democracy, right-wing people even in the same party disagree with each other quite often, much more so if you look a different parties and different countries. Austria is a very good example for that, with the BZÖ and the FPÖ, both arisen from the same former party with a far-right agenda (compared to Swiss right-wing parties) and with a huge following (compared to German far-right wing parties), and now fighting each other vigorously (and both parties continue to splinter).
When some Christian commits crimes and states religious reasons for them, you get a cry of outrage from the rest of the christian world. Center-right parties will renounce whenever fascist motivated people go postal. You get much less of such from the Muslim world when fanatic Islamists blow themselves up in a mall, therefor I wrote above that it's difficult to judge it according to it's mainstream.

You write that you judge Christianity etc. "by their words". I find it much more useful to judge people by actions, especially when looking at Christianity, where you would find passages in the bible that justify almost everything. Yet I don't see many Christians ripping their eyes out and stuff, so I judge it by what the majority of active followers actually do. Similarly I would judge communism very differently (much more positive, that is) when only reading the books of communist thinkers than when I take a look at what they did in Soviet Russia.
I think that everywhere, we find strategies of exclusion and inclusion and that cannot be help. The real question is whether the borderlines draw by some ideology are reasonable and represent actual lines of conflict instead of merely inventing them. It is for example a fact that there are many poor people and many more very poor people and there are social, economic and political power structures that produce and endlessly reproduce and worsen these divisions. Pointing out these structures and showing the poor and very poor why it is that they must suffer and toil and thus making these very structures and the people profiting from them out as their enemies can also be called hateful, but it is a healthy and good hate, a reasonable and justified hate.
And yet someone from a poor country could have taken that hate and could have gone to central Europe and shoot some seventy children to "hurt the system as much as possible". The result would have been the same. In the hands of such a man like that Norwegian monster, every ideology that blames anyone for anything is dangerous and potentially lethal.
Rider wrote:Even Burzim is angry at him.

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe01.shtml
1.
me wrote:(...)[Right wing people will renounce from a fascist killer] as fast as you and I would with such a man coming from a blind guardian /metal fan background. And you can as easily "unmask" metal as a hateful and inhuman ideology, just by looking into the lyrics of some (black) bands or listening to their announcements (...)
Kind of makes my point.
2.
Why is such scum even allowed to write publicly :( What happened in Norway was a real tragedy, how could anyone respond to that with only more hate :?
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#24 Post by Andreas » 27 Jul 2011 00:26

t.a.j. wrote: Here is a small part of all the violence condoned and commanded in the bible:
...
And you already have my answer:
Andreas wrote: Admittedly, in the Bible, passages can be found where God gives the order to kill, but those cases are exceptional, in the sense that the Bible does not give me, as a christian, the command to kill non-christians
Besides, some texts don't even give the order to a man, but speak about what God will do, no a human.

I don't know what you believe in specifically, but apart from history, biology and astronomy, there are moral matters. I understand christian fundamentalism to entail that women should be subservient to men(1), that adulterers should be harshly punished(2), that a man enjoying the physical affections of another man is a horrible thing(3), that all non-believers are consigned to an eternity (or at least the vast majority of their existence) of the most terrible suffering(4), that sex outside of wedlock is horrible(5) and that for the goal of eternal life in Christ, not earthly price or suffering is too high(6).
Do you subscribe to these doctrines?
1: It's women should be subservient to their husband, not to men in general. But this "doctrine", as you call it, is not something I wholeheartedly support. I hate it when it is used as a domination tool so to speak, since that's quite easily done in conservative christianity I'm afraid (believe me I've seen it very close). Though I have to say that it's not necessarily a bad thing, but people tend to forget that, where the Bible mentions this, it's not only women hearing their duties. Men are not allowed to be a slave driver towards their wife. It's cases like this that dont make me feel comfortable with this "doctrine".
2: No matter how much I despise aldutery, it's not something that should be punished by the government. It's amoral to do, but punishment? Nah.
3: Horrible? I don't know. I disapprove admittedly, but I'm not gonna say that people like this will burn forever.
4: Yes, I believe that.
5: I disagree. Not that I'm a practicioner, but I don't judge people having sex without being married. Plus, I can't say it's bad, it's the intention that is important to me.
6: I absolutely agree. Call me a fatalist or whatever, but it gives me peace of mind.

And one more thing. You say that only an ideology that has "love God above all and your fellow human like you love yourself" as it's "fundament" can be considered Christian. I wonder why I should believe you when others tell me that faith in Christ, the savior is what is fundamental to Christianity and yet others insist that only taking the whole of the bible and only the whole of the bible as literal truth and the word of God is requi4red? How come you speak for what is truly Christian and not, say, the Church of Latter Day Saints? And how would I, skeptical atheist that I am, be able to distinguish those who speak for real and authentic Christianity from those who merely profess to do so? I am afraid I cannot do that. I must take people at their word and judge their beliefs by their words, not wonder about what "real Christianity" is. If I had to have an opinion, I would hazard that authentic Christianity disappeared when the first generation of Christians died and the second generation had to face the fact that Jesus lied about coming back before that generation was in the grave.
Very good point. I might have been too arrogant in my statement. Still, to love God means to love Jesus Christ (which requires believing in Jesus and that His sacrifice is adequate for all our sins). This can be found in the Bible, indeed, so you might say that we all are right. This description might be a bit vague, it's hard for me to tell it in English. You understand it?

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#25 Post by t.a.j. » 27 Jul 2011 09:30

Andreas wrote:
t.a.j. wrote: Here is a small part of all the violence condoned and commanded in the bible:
...
And you already have my answer:
Andreas wrote: Admittedly, in the Bible, passages can be found where God gives the order to kill, but those cases are exceptional, in the sense that the Bible does not give me, as a christian, the command to kill non-christians
Besides, some texts don't even give the order to a man, but speak about what God will do, no a human.
All the more reason not to worship such a monster.
I maintain that it's not exceptional, but the vast majority. And even if it were exceptional, why tolerate such blatantly unreasonable and unjustified violence at all?

1: It's women should be subservient to their husband, not to men in general. But this "doctrine", as you call it, is not something I wholeheartedly support. I hate it when it is used as a domination tool so to speak, since that's quite easily done in conservative christianity I'm afraid (believe me I've seen it very close). Though I have to say that it's not necessarily a bad thing, but people tend to forget that, where the Bible mentions this, it's not only women hearing their duties. Men are not allowed to be a slave driver towards their wife. It's cases like this that dont make me feel comfortable with this "doctrine".
What, if not a domination tool is "wives, be subservient to your husbands" supposed to be?
2: No matter how much I despise aldutery, it's not something that should be punished by the government. It's amoral to do, but punishment? Nah.
Why is it immoral to have sex with someone who is not your marriage partner while in marriage? It seems to me that the condition is something else, hurting someone and lying to them, that is immoral. If everything is agreed upon and everyone consents, why bother?
Furthermore, it still says

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

So, I take it, you disagree with what the bible says. Either that, you condone vigilante justice against adulterers.
3: Horrible? I don't know. I disapprove admittedly, but I'm not gonna say that people like this will burn forever.
A mild position.
4: Yes, I believe that.
I personally find that the most offensive and immoral of all Christian doctrines. There are billions of people who have never heard of Christ and billions more who are good people, yet not Christians. And what about children born dead or who died before ever being able to understand a single sentence? Anyone who would heap such ultimate punishment on someone merely because he wasn't a member of the right club is profoundly evil. And to believe that such a thing is just and right is a great moral failure.
5: I disagree. Not that I'm a practicioner, but I don't judge people having sex without being married. Plus, I can't say it's bad, it's the intention that is important to me.
It's ok if they intend to marry?
6: I absolutely agree. Call me a fatalist or whatever, but it gives me peace of mind.
I don't call you a fatalist, but I will point out that you might have just condoned the torture and burning of witches and the cruelties of Mother Theresa.

Very good point. I might have been too arrogant in my statement. Still, to love God means to love Jesus Christ (which requires believing in Jesus and that His sacrifice is adequate for all our sins). This can be found in the Bible, indeed, so you might say that we all are right. This description might be a bit vague, it's hard for me to tell it in English. You understand it?
I think so. But I also mentioned Mormons, who hold radically different beliefs about Christ and God The Father.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#26 Post by Andreas » 27 Jul 2011 15:27

t.a.j. wrote: All the more reason not to worship such a monster.
I maintain that it's not exceptional, but the vast majority. And even if it were exceptional, why tolerate such blatantly unreasonable and unjustified violence at all?
This violence was never unjustified and unreasonable. You can give me an example, and I will most probably be able to tell you why it happened.

What, if not a domination tool is "wives, be subservient to your husbands" supposed to be?
As I might have mentioned, it does not give the husband the right to be a tyrant. The man is the head of the family, but with power comes responsibility, so to speak.
But for your information: I would never go as far to say to my GF something like "fetch me a cup of coffee". I don't like ordering around someone I love.
Why is it immoral to have sex with someone who is not your marriage partner while in marriage? It seems to me that the condition is something else, hurting someone and lying to them, that is immoral. If everything is agreed upon and everyone consents, why bother?
I can't speak for others, but if I would promise loyalty to one person and no other, I wouldn't be a man of my word if I would come back on my words. Even with everyone's consents, this would make people untrustworthy.
Furthermore, it still says

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."

Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Laws of the Old Testament (or old "treaty"). This kind of punishments were made invalid by the sacrifice of Jesus. This sacrifice made it also possible for adulterers to receive forgiveness.
So, I take it, you disagree with what the bible says. Either that, you condone vigilante justice against adulterers.
Neither.
I personally find that the most offensive and immoral of all Christian doctrines. There are billions of people who have never heard of Christ and billions more who are good people, yet not Christians.
I must admit I'm having a hard time with this too, sometimes. On the other hand, it's not up to me to worry about that.
And what about children born dead or who died before ever being able to understand a single sentence?
If the parents have prayed for their child, there's nothing to worry about.
Anyone who would heap such ultimate punishment on someone merely because he wasn't a member of the right club is profoundly evil. And to believe that such a thing is just and right is a great moral failure.
But when can someone be classified as a member of the "right club"?
By the way, there wouldn't be much point in following God if I wouldn't go to hell anyway, would it? Still, it's not the fear of going to hell that makes me want to follow God.
It's ok if they intend to marry?
Tricky one. You can say "let's have sex, later we will marry". But what if it doesn't work out in the end? For me, it's the intent of spending the rest of your life with the person you have sex with, in both good and bad times. Lots of times this is sealed by marriage, but I never felt that it's absolutely necessary.
I don't call you a fatalist, but I will point out that you might have just condoned the torture and burning of witches and the cruelties of Mother Theresa.
Now this I do not understand at all. What I meant is that no matter what happens to me in this life, I can't be worried too much because I know where I will end up. I wholeheartedly resent the way "witches" have been treated, and I don't know what mother Theresa did. For your information, I'm protestant, which is something entirely different than roman catholic.

I think so. But I also mentioned Mormons, who hold radically different beliefs about Christ and God The Father.
Indeed. But it's a religion that also glorifies a human (wasn't it Peter Smith?), and therefore cannot be considered christian (in my humble opinion).

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#27 Post by t.a.j. » 27 Jul 2011 17:22

Andreas wrote:
t.a.j. wrote: All the more reason not to worship such a monster.
I maintain that it's not exceptional, but the vast majority. And even if it were exceptional, why tolerate such blatantly unreasonable and unjustified violence at all?
This violence was never unjustified and unreasonable. You can give me an example, and I will most probably be able to tell you why it happened.
Fine, why did Jehova kill all those mice and pigs and infants in the flood? Why all the first born in Egypt? What justified the genocide, enslavement and mass rape of the Canaanites?
What, if not a domination tool is "wives, be subservient to your husbands" supposed to be?
As I might have mentioned, it does not give the husband the right to be a tyrant. The man is the head of the family, but with power comes responsibility, so to speak.
But for your information: I would never go as far to say to my GF something like "fetch me a cup of coffee". I don't like ordering around someone I love.
What does subservience of wife to husband mean then?
Why is it immoral to have sex with someone who is not your marriage partner while in marriage? It seems to me that the condition is something else, hurting someone and lying to them, that is immoral. If everything is agreed upon and everyone consents, why bother?
I can't speak for others, but if I would promise loyalty to one person and no other, I wouldn't be a man of my word if I would come back on my words. Even with everyone's consents, this would make people untrustworthy.
True. But, how does loyalty come into this?
I personally find that the most offensive and immoral of all Christian doctrines. There are billions of people who have never heard of Christ and billions more who are good people, yet not Christians.
I must admit I'm having a hard time with this too, sometimes. On the other hand, it's not up to me to worry about that.
I find that worrying about what we believe and what our beliefs entail to be central to moral integrity.
And what about children born dead or who died before ever being able to understand a single sentence?
If the parents have prayed for their child, there's nothing to worry about.
An infant is hardly capable of having faith in anything or believing in anything. If praying for someone is enough to gain them salvation, faith in Christ in not necessary.
Anyone who would heap such ultimate punishment on someone merely because he wasn't a member of the right club is profoundly evil. And to believe that such a thing is just and right is a great moral failure.
But when can someone be classified as a member of the "right club"?
By the way, there wouldn't be much point in following God if I wouldn't go to hell anyway, would it? Still, it's not the fear of going to hell that makes me want to follow God.
That smacks of contradiction. What makes you want to follow your God? And why should that not serve as "the point" of following him?
Tricky one. You can say "let's have sex, later we will marry". But what if it doesn't work out in the end? For me, it's the intent of spending the rest of your life with the person you have sex with, in both good and bad times. Lots of times this is sealed by marriage, but I never felt that it's absolutely necessary.
Is it not ok if they don't intend to spend the rest of their lives together, but just love each other dearly and are very attracted to each other and deeply enjoy the sex, among other things as an expression of that love and affection? Or rather, why is that intention important?
Now this I do not understand at all. What I meant is that no matter what happens to me in this life, I can't be worried too much because I know where I will end up. I wholeheartedly resent the way "witches" have been treated, and I don't know what mother Theresa did. For your information, I'm protestant, which is something entirely different than roman catholic.
Google her, it's interesting. But to put the question more abstractly: If you knew with absolute certainty that torturing someone for a year, by skinning their fingers and letting them rot off, pulling out their teeth, waterboarding them,.... would result in them adopting faith in Christ and becoming a good Christian an thereby attaining eternal life, would such torture be justified?
I think so. But I also mentioned Mormons, who hold radically different beliefs about Christ and God The Father.
Indeed. But it's a religion that also glorifies a human (wasn't it Peter Smith?), and therefore cannot be considered christian (in my humble opinion).
It's Jospeh Smith and he is considered a prophet. The Mormon deity bears the same Name as yours and they, too, worship a Jesus Christ as his son. They also treat the Bible as scripture.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#28 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 27 Jul 2011 18:38

t.a.j. wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Even Burzim is angry at him.

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe01.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMNLTIVleVo

:roll: :roll:
Well, got to admit that he argues his opinion rather well. Too bad he wastes his intelligence on retarted points of view, otherwise he could have been an interesting writer.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#29 Post by t.a.j. » 27 Jul 2011 18:43

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
Well, got to admit that he argues his opinion rather well. Too bad he wastes his intelligence on retarted points of view, otherwise he could have been an interesting writer.
Seriously? You find that to be well argued?
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#30 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 27 Jul 2011 18:55

For a racist, yes. The point that he tries to make is questional at the very least, but he does argueit rather well.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#31 Post by Desert_Storm » 27 Jul 2011 20:34

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
t.a.j. wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Even Burzim is angry at him.

http://www.burzum.org/eng/library/war_in_europe01.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMNLTIVleVo

:roll: :roll:
Well, got to admit that he argues his opinion rather well. Too bad he wastes his intelligence on retarted points of view, otherwise he could have been an interesting writer.
Well smack my ass and call me Judy. Here we have the mindless jabbering of a delusional scumbag and you find it "rather well" argued. As much as I try, I can hardly find a hint of conclusiveness in it, and even if there was, all his axioms are racist, paranoid, delusional, inhuman and just plain stupid. "International Jewry"?? Jews creating "Christianity as a religion for non-Jews to follow,(...), so that the unruly Pagan Europeans would become servants and a powerful tool for the Jews" ??? Jews "laughing in the background and profiting from it all"??? I wanted to quote some of the most witless stuff here to make a point, but the quotes would take more space than my actual message.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#32 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 27 Jul 2011 22:08

Well, even delusions can be argued well. Take the movie An Inconvenient Truth for example. The whole message of that movie is quite silly, but you still have to admit Al Gore makes a good argument. Same thing with Burzum. I never said I agree with him, but at least he manages to write a coherent piece about it. Usually people who are that racist arent capable of writing anything other than 'thaytookourtjops'.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#33 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 28 Jul 2011 01:59

Seriously whats up with this no more than 21 years in prison thing? So what happens in 21 when years this guy gets out and does the same thing over again? 21 more years in prison? Sounds a bit asinine to me.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#34 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 28 Jul 2011 07:50

Actually, thats how it works in a lot of European countries.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#35 Post by Dentarthurdent » 28 Jul 2011 11:04

Well, we could just shoot 'im inna head...

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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#36 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 28 Jul 2011 13:54

This guy killed 76 innocent people. Gunned down helpless teenagers who just wanted to go swim (isn't it ungodly cold in Norway?) and have a good time and he is getting 21 years. I guess since Im not from Europe it seems a bit crazy to me. If he was in the USA he would be spending the rest of his life in prison. Possibly the death penalty depending on the situation.

Do you Europeans feel 21 years in prison is adequate for this horrendous crime?

I remember the morning it happened. I got back to the office after a long night of splicing fiber optic cables together. We sat in the break room and started watching tv, the news was on, and the attacks in Oslo were the main story. I recall the way it made me feel inside, the sadness that over came me was tremendous. I just feel, this is because Im from USA, that 21 years in prison is like spitting in the face of everyone that was killed that day. Ive listened to several accounts from the shooting and I cannot sit through them without shedding a few tears. Such a terrible terrible thing to happen and 21 years just doesn't seem like its enough.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#37 Post by Desert_Storm » 28 Jul 2011 14:21

Baby_Kürsch wrote:This guy killed 76 innocent people. Gunned down helpless teenagers who just wanted to go swim (isn't it ungodly cold in Norway?) and have a good time and he is getting 21 years. I guess since Im not from Europe it seems a bit crazy to me. If he was in the USA he would be spending the rest of his life in prison. Possibly the death penalty depending on the situation.

Do you Europeans feel 21 years in prison is adequate for this horrendous crime?

I remember the morning it happened. I got back to the office after a long night of splicing fiber optic cables together. We sat in the break room and started watching tv, the news was on, and the attacks in Oslo were the main story. I recall the way it made me feel inside, the sadness that over came me was tremendous. I just feel, this is because Im from USA, that 21 years in prison is like spitting in the face of everyone that was killed that day. Ive listened to several accounts from the shooting and I cannot sit through them without shedding a few tears. Such a terrible terrible thing to happen and 21 years just doesn't seem like its enough.
I'm with you. I don't really know why this is the upper limit though, so maybe someone can enlighten us here. It sounds quite ridiculous to me in this situation anyway, because that would be like two and a half months arrest for each person he shot :roll:
What I know is that some European states have a current practice that I would translate as "custody" (Verwahrung), meaning that a convicted criminal can be kept shut away if he's considered dangerous for the public, even after his jail sentence expired.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#38 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 28 Jul 2011 14:23

How do they enforce that?
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#39 Post by Desert_Storm » 28 Jul 2011 14:31

In Switzerland, as far as I know, it's based on psychological profiles and the general way of behaviour of the prisoner. 21 years is quite a long time to observe a person and estimate what he might be up to in the future. If there's violence in prison, threats, racism and stuff they pretty much will keep him behind closed doors. Anyway, I recently read that they might have to change it since it's somehow not compatible with EU-law (as far as I remember), but I'm not really update on this matters since Switzerland's domestic politics don't concern me much nowadays (I don't live there atm).
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#40 Post by t.a.j. » 28 Jul 2011 14:39

How does one treat political violence?
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#41 Post by Belgarion » 28 Jul 2011 20:04

Baby_Kürsch wrote:This guy killed 76 innocent people. Gunned down helpless teenagers who just wanted to go swim (isn't it ungodly cold in Norway?) and have a good time and he is getting 21 years. I guess since Im not from Europe it seems a bit crazy to me. If he was in the USA he would be spending the rest of his life in prison. Possibly the death penalty depending on the situation.

Do you Europeans feel 21 years in prison is adequate for this horrendous crime?

I remember the morning it happened. I got back to the office after a long night of splicing fiber optic cables together. We sat in the break room and started watching tv, the news was on, and the attacks in Oslo were the main story. I recall the way it made me feel inside, the sadness that over came me was tremendous. I just feel, this is because Im from USA, that 21 years in prison is like spitting in the face of everyone that was killed that day. Ive listened to several accounts from the shooting and I cannot sit through them without shedding a few tears. Such a terrible terrible thing to happen and 21 years just doesn't seem like its enough.
He should get life imprisonment. 21 years in prison is a joke for what he did and I'm sure that he won't get out of prison until he dies. As far as I know, he is being tried for crimes against humanity and that's different than the punishment a murderer would normally get.

I'm against death penalty, but am a strong supporter of life imprisonment for such cases. He should also serve his sentence as harsh as possible; only basic rights, nothing more.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#42 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 28 Jul 2011 21:25

I strongly disagree as I believe lifelong sentences are undemocratic to begin with. In order for something to be labelled as a crime, the act in question must be qualified as a crime beforehand. When eshtablished, the degreee of the punishment should be decided. This should be the same for everyone. Lifelong sentences are undemocratic because they punish different people in different degrees. After all, we dont all live to be the same age.

I am, however, in favor.of adding up multiple convictions. One murder is 12 years, two is 24, et cetera.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#43 Post by Desert_Storm » 29 Jul 2011 14:17

To clarify a little something about the European penalty system:
The "life imprisonment" exists in nearly every European state, save for Portugal, Spain, Croatia, and, well, Norway. The sentence is life-long only in name, however, as it impinges human rights to get a sentence without the possibility to acquire freedom again one day. In Germany, you therefor have the option for probation (gr?) once you served fifteen years, if your crime was very severe after twenty, and then every two years again.
Because that makes it quite likely for you to get out after some 20 years, earlier on you could be convicted to e.g. "seven times life imprisonment for seven murders", so that you would have to wait longer for a chance of probation (much like they do/did in the US, if I remember correctly?), so it was basically like the Rider would have it. Anyhow, they don't do that anymore (multiple times life sentences) in Germany.

I would have to do some research to get a clearer picture of the Swiss custody-imprisonment system and it's complications with international law or even human rights, but I think the information is pretty much open for everyone interested in that thing called "the web".
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#44 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 29 Jul 2011 14:38

just looked it up, here in Holland a life-long sentence is in fact life-long. Generally only reserved for the worst of criminals with multiple murders on his/her name. So I reckon that for this guy it would definately add up to life-long imprisonment here in the Netherlands.
A criminal can request a pardon, which has to be granted by Royal Order, therefor life imprisonment here does not impinge basic human rights.
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Re: WTF if going on in Oslo?

#45 Post by Valkjosa » 11 Aug 2011 19:24

It's an interesting case, this act has made people call for a revsion of the penalty system, and specifically, the imprisonment terms for atrocity crimes like the one committed by ABB. Not only is the maximum duration of imprisonment 21 years, but the Norwegian legal system is such the detainee can appeal for probation after one third to one half of the sentence has been served. That said, the legislative system provides exemptions in cases where the criminal is considered unsafe, or a threat to the community. This means our homegrown gunman will most likely (he hasn't been convicted yet, so we don't know what the final sentence will be) be sentenced to the 21 years, then there will be a review of his mental state which will enable a prolongation of his sentence for five years, which can be repeated as necessary, thereby ensuring that he may never be free in society again, and will, literally, be serving a life sentence.

I've been reading the discussions on this thread regarding religion and world view with interest, especially Andreas and t.a.j.'s inputs. As the world is getting smaller, it will be imperative that we as a human race understand the impliations of our world views and beliefs, and the way these influence our actions. It has been pointed out in no uncertain terms by the hubristic beliefs and attitude of this one man/monster, who with his God complex considered himself above the rest of his fellow humans.

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