I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

In this section, you can talk relaxedly about everyday matters, and also engage in more serious discussions. Please try to keep this place accessible to everyone and write your posts in English.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Ryannoah

I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#1 Post by Ryannoah » 10 Dec 2010 08:05

Hi guys, I apologise for my ramblings in advance but PLEASE do not ridicule them, if you are going to - then step away, and I'm very happy that you are content with everything going on in your life but please do not try and exert your authority over those who are not.

Well, I'm 23 years old. I left school at 16 with good grades, but didn't want to continue with further education. At the end of the day, I'd spent 11 years in school, I wanted something different and exciting.

Since then I've...
> Had a really good job working in an accountants
> Gained my chartered accountancy qualification
> Had a gambling addiction
> Lived n Ibiza for 6 months
> Have a ketamine addiction
> Had numerous relationships, some fulfilling, some not.
> Had a large amount of friends
> Started my own club night
> Moved out and lived with friends twice (now live back at home with Dad)

and overall the conclusion I come to is that I get bored easily. As soon as I start something new I'm happy for a VERY short period of time before I want something else to fill the void. I am UNWILLING to commit the rest of my life to work, in a system where the bank / government gains significantly more than half of every pound I earn (after interest, inflation, tax, VAT, etc) and there are bankers / religious figures / leaders sat at the top of the pyramid doing nothing except cruising around on their luxury yachts all day.

The true meaning to life for me is freedom. If that means giving up material goods, so be it. They do not appear to bring happiness anyway. So is there a society in the world I can live in which provides for this? I'm also interested in growing spiritually (be this with the aid of natural drugs or not).

The other reason I do not wish to live in the society today is the blatant number of lies which are everywhere. It is obvious by looking at any politician for 30 seconds that these men who are meant to be working for us, as citizens, have their own agenda.

I want to change the world in some way, I guess. Failing that, live in a society where everyone is equal, be this at the compromise of material security.

Also - I ponder a lot what the point is of life. To reproduce? To work every day then die? If so, what is the point of being alive to start with?

Can someone genuinely provide me with these answers? I'm sure it's also easy to say "Just get on with it and be happy", but I find that impossible. Whenever I have any money I have a desire to get rid of it ASAP - what right do I have to it if starving children in Africa don't? I am no better than them in anyway.

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#2 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Dec 2010 08:23

What do you mean, when you say that the meaning of life is freedom? Specifically, what do you mean with freedom.
It has been my experience that the freedom to do something only is an issue, when you find yourself somehow blocked from doing that specific thing, while it is then quite unimportant what you are free to do.
But you might resent a more general feeling of being trapped.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#3 Post by Belgarion » 10 Dec 2010 09:32

In my opinion the meaning of human life is minimizing your suffering in the micro scale (from an individual perspective) by having enough money to ensure that and once you achieved that, then helping people around you have better lives too any way you can in the macro scale (from a communal perspective).

Loving someone would also be nice.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#4 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Dec 2010 09:35

Belgarion wrote:In my opinion the meaning of human life is minimizing your suffering in the micro scale (from an individual perspective) by having enough money to ensure that and once you achieved that, then helping people around you have better lives too any way you can in the macro scale (from a communal perspective).

Loving someone would also be nice.
It is interesting that you define the meaning of life as a set of practical goals to achieve. I've always wondered, if life has a meaning, does it refer to something?
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#5 Post by Belgarion » 10 Dec 2010 09:48

Well, actually I don't think human life actually means anything. We are quite randomly born into a world of other 6 billion people without having a say in it. Pure coincidience, random choice, just another statistical addition to the cosmos with no real significance.

From the moment you gain cognitive abilities during your childhood and thus an understanding of the world you live in, you have to decide whether to end your life or keep on living. Not that it will (most probably) make any difference. Anyway, for people that choose to live on should set for themselves a guide to how to adapt best to this world. I guess suffering minimization is the optimal way.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#6 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Dec 2010 10:25

Belgarion wrote:Well, actually I don't think human life actually means anything. We are quite randomly born into a world of other 6 billion people without having a say in it. Pure coincidience, random choice, just another statistical addition to the cosmos with no real significance.
Ah, but that is a meaning, is it not? To say human life is anything, even "pure coincidence, random choice,..." provides content to the notion of human life. And if someone asks you: what does it mean to be human, you can answer that it means being "pure coincidence, random choice, just another statistical addition to the cosmos with no real significance."
Alas, many would now ask, what, if that is so, they should do. That is, many would look not for what life means, but for what purpose their lives have, a question best answered by giving a practical goal. But here, I am afraid, you are at a loss. For what purposed would follow from the meaning you say life has? Being random? Doing random things? Or would you merely say "It doesn't matter, do whatever you will." But who would be satisfied with that? And even people like me, who have spent a lot of their time doing whatever they will, have from time to time noticed that it is nice to have a purpose or have suddenly found themselves engaged in one.
How easy this question is for the religious man, who will tell you that the gods have made man to worship and serve them, asserting both meaning and purpose at the same time. Is that the way to go? Bow down and praise Enki, serve his priests and temples?
Or shall we proclaim an iota of power over fate? Shall we say that human life is not all "pure coincidence, random choice", but that by reason and awareness, we can ever so slightly make the world, instead of just live in it? And shall we say that this gives us a purpose: the betterment of mankind? Or even just our own?
But, yells the sceptic, does not this, too, merely represent a physical process, either random and statistical or deterministic. Do not your vaunted powers of reason and awareness guide you as strictly and impersonally along a path not of your making, but of theirs?
And maybe the whole question was meaningless to begin with. Never asked to be answered with truth and seriousness. Maybe it is just a psychological game wherein we justify to ourselves what we are, what we do, why we are not like others are or like others want us to be. Maybe the rich invent a purpose to life in order to assuage their economical survivors guilt, while the poor invent one to assuage their guilt at not being rich and successful. The very poor are probably to busy surviving to ask such questions anyway.

From the moment you gain cognitive abilities during your childhood and thus an understanding of the world you live in, you have to decide whether to end your life or keep on living. Not that it will (most probably) make any difference.
But death ends your existence. What greater difference could there be than between something and nothing? Also, I doubt sincerely that more than maybe 10-20 percent of people ever seriously think about suicide, much less make a decision, except if you will want to say that every minute one lives, one decides to live, because one could as well kill oneself then. I tend to disagree. That is just inertia.
And children? It would be a rare child to contemplate suicide. Children are creatures of inertia more than even grown ups.
Anyway, for people that choose to live on should set for themselves a guide to how to adapt best to this world. I guess suffering minimization is the optimal way.
Why adapt? And why struggle to minimize suffering if there is way, a choice to make, that eliminates it? If the purpose to life would be to minimize suffering and it is a choice, as opposed to mere inertia, to stay alive or to commit suicide. It seems to me that it follows from those two premises that ceteris paribus, suicide is mandatory. The earlier the better. If life is a choice, more than minimization of suffering is required to make life a reasonable choice.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#7 Post by Belgarion » 10 Dec 2010 10:56

t.a.j. wrote: Or shall we proclaim an iota of power over fate? Shall we say that human life is not all "pure coincidence, random choice", but that by reason and awareness, we can ever so slightly make the world, instead of just live in it? And shall we say that this gives us a purpose: the betterment of mankind? Or even just our own?

But, yells the sceptic, does not this, too, merely represent a physical process, either random and statistical or deterministic. Do not your vaunted powers of reason and awareness guide you as strictly and impersonally along a path not of your making, but of theirs?
I agree that the communal purpose of human beings should be the betterment of mankind, hence why I said "helping people around you have better lives too any way you can in the macro scale (from a communal perspective)."

But as you nicely put through your sceptical voice, you are still part of statistics of nature.

I think that it doesn't make any difference in the big picture. Yes, you interacted with some other lives, you helped them, you made the world more liveable. But this is nothing compared to the power of nature. You know that all you have accomplished can be nulled in one second if a big meteoroid gets its chance to hit the earth.

Human life would only have a meaning if there was an afterlife.
But death ends your existence. What greater difference could there be than between something and nothing? Also, I doubt sincerely that more than maybe 10-20 percent of people ever seriously think about suicide, much less make a decision, except if you will want to say that every minute one lives, one decides to live, because one could as well kill oneself then. I tend to disagree. That is just inertia.

And children? It would be a rare child to contemplate suicide. Children are creatures of inertia more than even grown ups.
I didn't mean that children would commit suicide. In fact, they won't, even if they are born in Africa to a devastating poverty and they know that there is 50% chance that they will die before they turn 9. Survival instinct is too powerful, probably more powerful in kids than grown-ups.
Why adapt? And why struggle to minimize suffering if there is way, a choice to make, that eliminates it? If the purpose to life would be to minimize suffering and it is a choice, as opposed to mere inertia, to stay alive or to commit suicide. It seems to me that it follows from those two premises that ceteris paribus, suicide is mandatory. The earlier the better. If life is a choice, more than minimization of suffering is required to make life a reasonable choice.
What do you suggest if not adapt?
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#8 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Dec 2010 11:29

Belgarion wrote: I agree that the communal purpose of human beings should be the betterment of mankind, hence why I said "helping people around you have better lives too any way you can in the macro scale (from a communal perspective)."
I was indeed referring to that. I was also pointing out, that this normative statement ("should") does not follow in any way from what you said human life was. To put it more simply, if you say - I abbreviate - "life is random, therefore act for the betterment of mankind", you are leaving out a big chunk of argument that explains why, if life is random, one should act for the betterment of mankind.
I nothing in the notion of the randomness of human life or its coincidental coming about that would imply any kind of duty to act for the betterment of mankind. To motivate such a conclusion, one requires further premises. Which are yours?
I think that it doesn't make any difference in the big picture. Yes, you interacted with some other lives, you helped them, you made the world more liveable. But this is nothing compared to the power of nature. You know that all you have accomplished can be nulled in one second if a big meteoroid gets its chance to hit the earth.


Ah, and the great cold death of the earth... True. But still, what does this have to do with bettering mankind?
Human life would only have a meaning if there was an afterlife.
I have remarked on the difference between a purpose to life and a meaning of life just above. I assume you mean purpose here, affecting "that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins".

I am not certain, though, what one would gain by an afterlife.

What do you suggest if not adapt?
True to my jester's face, I do not suggest a solution. I merely seek to motivate you to question your assumptions. I might be failing, though.
Think about it this way: If I knew what to do, wouldn't I be doing it? Or if I were to invent a purpose to life, would it be to discuss philosophy of a metal band's forum?
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#9 Post by Joost » 10 Dec 2010 11:49

Original poster was a spambot, did you notice? ;)
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#10 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Dec 2010 11:57

Joost wrote:Original poster was a spambot, did you notice? ;)
I make few choices, but yes, I chose to not treat it like a spambot, knowing that it probably was. I liked it better that way.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

Skrymir
Posts: 144
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 19:01

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#11 Post by Skrymir » 10 Dec 2010 21:32

Machines start thinking about the meaning of life. The day has come. :shock:

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#12 Post by t.a.j. » 10 Dec 2010 22:01

I do find it a most likeable spambot at that.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

User avatar
Belgarion
Posts: 280
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Istanbul-Freiburg

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#13 Post by Belgarion » 16 Dec 2010 13:31

t.a.j. wrote: I was indeed referring to that. I was also pointing out, that this normative statement ("should") does not follow in any way from what you said human life was. To put it more simply, if you say - I abbreviate - "life is random, therefore act for the betterment of mankind", you are leaving out a big chunk of argument that explains why, if life is random, one should act for the betterment of mankind.
I nothing in the notion of the randomness of human life or its coincidental coming about that would imply any kind of duty to act for the betterment of mankind. To motivate such a conclusion, one requires further premises. Which are yours?
Life being random doesn't have anything to do with why we should try to do our best by bettering the mankind. Humans should try to improve their community ethically and scientifically or any other way since that's how races survive and evolve. This is what happened in the past. We ended up in the modern world we live in right now (not that it's the pinnacle of ethics or science) evolving from the lawless, primitive first humans that walked this earth. I think that kind of progress happens even the people don't want it or understand it during the process. It just happens; it's a kind of evolution.

I have remarked on the difference between a purpose to life and a meaning of life just above. I assume you mean purpose here, affecting "that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve individual life beyond the grave;", all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins".

I am not certain, though, what one would gain by an afterlife.


If there was an afterlife, you would know that the extinction of the human race would only apply to the earth. Everything might be lost there, but everything still stands in the afterlife and "all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius" won't be wiped off by some random event.
True to my jester's face, I do not suggest a solution. I merely seek to motivate you to question your assumptions. I might be failing, though.
Think about it this way: If I knew what to do, wouldn't I be doing it? Or if I were to invent a purpose to life, would it be to discuss philosophy of a metal band's forum?
Maybe you are doing it, I don't know. I don't think there actually is "a" meaning of life, so I just assume people find the best possible explanation for themselves and try to execute it.
In this world there are two tragedies, one is not getting what one wants and the other is getting it. Oscar Wilde

God gave men a brain and a penis and only enough blood to work one at a time.

User avatar
t.a.j.
Posts: 1459
Joined: 18 Aug 2002 23:29
Location: where ignorant armies clash by night
Contact:

Re: I feel like I want to be free, how is this achievable?

#14 Post by t.a.j. » 16 Dec 2010 14:09

Belgarion wrote: Life being random doesn't have anything to do with why we should try to do our best by bettering the mankind. Humans should try to improve their community ethically and scientifically or any other way since that's how races survive and evolve. This is what happened in the past. We ended up in the modern world we live in right now (not that it's the pinnacle of ethics or science) evolving from the lawless, primitive first humans that walked this earth. I think that kind of progress happens even the people don't want it or understand it during the process. It just happens; it's a kind of evolution.
Then I would ask two questions:
Firstly, are you certain that that is how species survive and evolve? I have spent some time looking at the myriads of critters we share this planet with and not once have I found them working for the general betterment of their kind. It might be true that for the general human, life is more enjoyable and better than say, 500 years ago, but the same does not seem to be true of ants, rats, dogs, or anthrax bacteria.
I would propose that "living a good life" or "improve the standard of life" has next to nothing to do with increasing the evolutionary fitness of a species.
Secondly, again assuming that your hypothesis holds for humanity in general, you seem to get yourself into something of a motivational problem. You sought to explain or give a reason for why people should work to make their lives and the lives of others better. But your answer ended with the statement that "it just happens.". If it just happens, it seems that there is little reason to motivate anyone to actively do anything. After all, if it just happens, why do anything about it?

If there was an afterlife, you would know that the extinction of the human race would only apply to the earth. Everything might be lost there, but everything still stands in the afterlife and "all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius" won't be wiped off by some random event.
But that seems to assume that Shakespear and The First Law Series, the Akropolis and Sacre Cour, classical logic, speech act theory and the standard model of quantum dynamics will somehow be a feature of that afterlife. And given that, it seems a ridiculous to me to value them now, when they are fragile and succumbing to the ravages of time, when we can have them again, shiney and good as new, in the afterlife. In fact, why bother building them in the flesh, as it were?
Maybe you are doing it, I don't know. I don't think there actually is "a" meaning of life, so I just assume people find the best possible explanation for themselves and try to execute it.
A suitably thoughtful consideration, alas not a solution. I your judgement about people finding their own explanations and executing them is that that is always ok, you cannot judge certain ways to be worse than others. But if you cannot do that, what value is there in choosing?
And if you choose to say that people should work for the betterment of mankind, does this not imply that not anything is fine, that of all the available options, working for the betterment of mankind is the right one?
Or did you mean to be merely descriptive and say: That's just how things go. If so, I still disagree and merely point to the towering historical monster that is christianity. Mostly, people were looking for answers, that claimed universal truth, finding the notion that there might be different explanations, each equally viable, abhorrent.
I for one fail to see the appeal of anything-goes subjectivism, find limited subjectivism lacking coherence and would say that stopping to believe in the possibility of truth in this regard is paramount to abandoning the search for it. It's a bit like science, only because every description of how things are given so far has been wrong doesn't mean that there isn't a way things are.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests