Burning the Qoran on 9/11

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The Rider Of Rohan
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Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#1 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 08 Sep 2010 18:49

Bad idea, or freedom of expression?
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#2 Post by Skrymir » 08 Sep 2010 19:08

It's a really bad idea. Pure provocation (e.g. in form of satire) can be funny and revealing but used in this "angry" way it's good for nothing but resulting violence.

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#3 Post by sharpened_graphite » 08 Sep 2010 20:22

As bad and stupid as muslims burning the US or Israeli flags. We should be striving for the reconciliation Western and Muslim cultures and the establishment of peace and prosperity for everyone in the Middle-East, rather than indulge in childish symbolic "acts of vengeance" (however clever and ironic those may seem).

Furthermore, you can no more blame the authors of the Koran for the actions of Terrorists than the authors of the Old and New Testaments for the Crusades. It is ultimately the choice of the people who read these books whether to make them stand for peace, tolerance and enlightenment or opressive, warmongering and stagnant dogmatism.

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#4 Post by Lord Borbak » 08 Sep 2010 20:29

Personally, I'm up for burning and/or destroying everything religious/spiritual no matter the religion/belief/crazy fairytale. Fuck em all. :mrgreen:
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#5 Post by Led Guardian » 08 Sep 2010 20:51

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Bad idea, or freedom of expression?
Both. They've got the right to do it as far as I'm concerned, but that they are ignorant enough to do it angers me. After all, the terrorist attacks were done by a terrorist group, not Muslims as a whole. On top of that, Gen. Petraeus has asked them not to do it because it will further endanger US troops in Afghanistan, and I agree with him. They think that they are being patriotic, yet they are ignoring Petraeus' warnings about danger to the troops (yes, the organizers know what he said).
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#6 Post by Joost » 08 Sep 2010 21:15

Indeed both. I wonder what the intended effect of it is, really, other than annoying Muslims. If 'opposing islamization' is what they want to achieve, I just don't see how this is achieved (even to a minimal degree) by burning the Qur'an. But hey, they got the right to do it, just like I got the right to burn the Rotterdam phone book. Which I guess I will just do, in order to stop the Rotterdamization of the world. Yay!
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#7 Post by sharpened_graphite » 08 Sep 2010 21:22

Lord Borbak wrote:Personally, I'm up for burning and/or destroying everything religious/spiritual no matter the religion/belief/crazy fairytale. Fuck em all. :mrgreen:
Would you abolish the notion of "sacred"?

In any case, religion is not so much a problem as it's made out to be but rather the excuse. It all comes down to economics and power play at the bottom, fanaticism is just a tool to sway the ignorant and could as easily be a belief in the absolute virtue of a general as in the absolute supremacy of a god (look at Stalin's and Lenin's "cult of personality" for that matter). When the crusaders conquered their Holy Land they were far more interested in capturing land, amassing wealth and consolidating their hold on the area than in "reclaiming the Lord's coffin". The Templars, for example, became so rich as to rival in power the monarchies back in Europe. That's the main reason why Phillip the IV and the Pope instigated the trial against them. The Terrorists are little different. The main cause of their emergence lies in the squalor and poverty of their countries (not to mention European and American interference which wasn't always benevolent, or wise).

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#8 Post by Orodaran » 08 Sep 2010 21:40

Very terrible idea, and very moronic and senseless act that does not demonstrate anything - only that the reverend doing it is a major dick.

Anyway, this is another clear indication of how the human kind is inherently racist - or better, likes to stay with their own kind rather than mixing with the others.

Different language, different skin colour, different cultures - everytime something is different, someone looks suspiciously of the other. And religion is really not any exception, religious differences are only at surface "fighting over whose imaginary friend has the longest dick" - it's really, deep down, a way to reaffirm one's self and put down the different ideas of the others.

When people attack someone's else religion, they're not just defending their god (even though that's what some fanatics are actually doing, believing it with all of their heart) - they're defending their lifestyle. Everything different is seen as if a kind of threat - political ideas stir people up because, deep down, a different political idea means "the way you think is wrong". And so is religion, any other religion is an "attack" to someone's religion because their belief system is put in doubt and seen under attack. "They think different than us so they are a threat" - it works everywhere, from something trivial as music, to something important as politics - and religion, of course.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#9 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 08 Sep 2010 21:43

Well at first I was opposed to burning the Quran, but the more I think about it, the more I realise there are more sides to it. In a way burning the Quran is like burning a flag - something which can be considered a deed of aggression (and something which should be punishable by some old-fashioned time in jail).

But then again, burning the American flag is legal too in America. It's not particularly smart (as the late and great Johnny Cash once pointed out: at the same time they gave people the right to burn the flag they gave people the right to bear arms) but when it comes down to it, it's one of those freedoms the founding fathers lived and died for.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#10 Post by Joost » 08 Sep 2010 21:49

I agree about book-burning being similar to flag-burning, but why should either be punishable by jailtime? I think both should be legal, and I think it's not up to the government to curtail the right to stupidity on moralistic grounds.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#11 Post by t.a.j. » 08 Sep 2010 22:01

As much as the big monotheistic revelation religions deserve abhorrence, it is the folly of a simple mind to blame the events of 9/11 in Islam.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#12 Post by No‘am » 08 Sep 2010 22:11

I would say both, but I actually think that it would fall under the label of "incitement", so it can't be freedom of speech where incitement is illegal.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#13 Post by Orodaran » 08 Sep 2010 22:33

t.a.j. wrote:As much as the big monotheistic revelation religions deserve abhorrence, it is the folly of a simple mind to blame the events of 9/11 in Islam.
Well, of course the reasons behind that act are political - but the fanatism to convince some people to die on a plane because after all they would end up in heaven with 72 virgins could come only from religion.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#14 Post by MarchOfTime » 08 Sep 2010 23:56

bahjeezus, for all America has achieved, we still have some damned petulant-minded folk here don't we?
Do we have to light everything on fire we don't like/ agree with?

Most people burning the book have no idea why in hell they are. What ideals they're burning. Like every page says "kill all Americans" or something. Bet if they read into it a little they'd see the connections between the bible and Qur'an. Gosh people are crazy.

I say we go witch hunting next Halloween, seems like a reasonable next step. :mrgreen:
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#15 Post by Dentarthurdent » 09 Sep 2010 00:07

Joost wrote:I agree about book-burning being similar to flag-burning, but why should either be punishable by jailtime? I think both should be legal, and I think it's not up to the government to curtail the right to stupidity on moralistic grounds.
I rather think it is up to the government to tell the people that they must not do stupid crap like that. It is not the government's job to tell peple the obvious (You mustn't kill/rape/steal etc) or what they want to hear.

And ebsides, that argument "it will harm or troops in Afghanistan" is probably the most selfish, retarded and mind-boggingly stupid argment ever. Hey, who cares if he hurts the religious feelings of a few billion people... They'll kill our troops!

Humanity... screw it.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#16 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 09 Sep 2010 00:36

It falls under the category of "freedom of expressing ones bad ideas".

People should start to learn that in order to overcome differences, they should stop creating them in the first place. If you want to stop the extremists and terrorists, you should not go about giving them reasons to act against you.

Just like with fires.. If you want to stop a fire, you should take away its fuel by throwing water over the burning materials (thus taking away the oxygen it needs). You don't pour hot gasoline over a fire to stop it from burning.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#17 Post by Dentarthurdent » 09 Sep 2010 00:46

I always thought they threw water on it to cool it down. They use the foam to get rid of the oxygen ;)
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#18 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 09 Sep 2010 01:13

as ridiculous as any religion
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#19 Post by Led Guardian » 09 Sep 2010 07:03

Dentarthurdent wrote:
Joost wrote:I agree about book-burning being similar to flag-burning, but why should either be punishable by jailtime? I think both should be legal, and I think it's not up to the government to curtail the right to stupidity on moralistic grounds.
I rather think it is up to the government to tell the people that they must not do stupid crap like that. It is not the government's job to tell peple the obvious (You mustn't kill/rape/steal etc) or what they want to hear.

And ebsides, that argument "it will harm or troops in Afghanistan" is probably the most selfish, retarded and mind-boggingly stupid argment ever. Hey, who cares if he hurts the religious feelings of a few billion people... They'll kill our troops!

Humanity... screw it.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, and what you are arguing. You say that it is up to the government to do stuff like that, but then you say it isn't their job.

And if you are saying what I think you are saying in the second paragraph, I disagree very much. A lot of people being offended is not nearly as bad as people dying. The side they're on is irrelevant. This burning could cost people lives, and that they are US troops is not relevant. I fail to see how that argument is in any way retarded.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#20 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Sep 2010 07:24

Joost wrote:I got the right to burn the Rotterdam phone book. Which I guess I will just do, in order to stop the Rotterdamization of the world. Yay!
OMG, it's everywhere! Just yesterday I saw a sign with an arrow and the word "Rotterdam" on it. And dozens of it the day before. These arrowslinging Rotterdammers are a threat to us all! They believe horrible things, I heard. Like that if you die, as a punishment you go to Europort, unless you have martyred yourself by throwing arrows or by rotting a dam!

On a different note, I don't think that book and flag burning is the same. A flag is only a symbol, while you can start a discourse with a book.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#21 Post by sharpened_graphite » 09 Sep 2010 08:55

Well, when a book is a symbol too, like all Holy Books of various religions. In fact, it's much worse because flags, while respected, are rarely considered literally holy. And it's the burning of a book as well, basically obliteration of someone's recoreded thought. All of which puts is somewhat higher on the offense scale than the burning of a flag.

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#22 Post by Joost » 09 Sep 2010 09:19

It would be worse if someone's recorded thought would actually be obliterated. Point is, in this day and time everybody can freely download the Qur'an (or just about any other book which is well-known enough, including banned ones like Mein Kampf) from the Internet, and the fact that some rednecks out there in Florida are gonna set some printed copy of that text on fire just ain't gonna change that. The recorded thought still is out there on quite a few million computers worldwide, and is spread around the globe - in its entirety - in less time than it would take me to write down just one verse from it on paper. And because no thought is actually destroyed, I don't see how the act of book burning would be anything more than a symbol. Mutatis mutandis, exactly the same argument works for showing the pointlessness of the banning of books.

If you want to be truly subversive these days, hacking's the way to go. Book burning is just so 1438.*



* I guess this says something about the members of aforementioned church in Florida.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#23 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 09:39

On a different note, I don't think that book and flag burning is the same. A flag is only a symbol, while you can start a discourse with a book.
Dunno. I remember at Wacken 2006, when Daantje found a German flag. He proposed to take some gasoline, find some Bohse Onkel-fans on the campinggrounds, and burn the flag in front of them. Obviously he didn't, but you can imagine what the results would've been. It might be only a symbol, but to a lot of people it's the symbol of the most significant thing there is.
And ebsides, that argument "it will harm or troops in Afghanistan" is probably the most selfish, retarded and mind-boggingly stupid argment ever. Hey, who cares if he hurts the religious feelings of a few billion people... They'll kill our troops!
I agree, but for a different reason that you do. It does say something that there's a group of extremists who has so little tolerance for other people who are a part of this free world, that they are willing to kill millitary men for the sole reason that they are a part of the same country some dude lives in who decides to burn a book.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#24 Post by t.a.j. » 09 Sep 2010 09:48

Write a virus that replaces every instance of one expression on the net with something else.
Like of course -> of cropse, that's so gay -> that's so great or I'm so depressed -> the monkeys are gonna rise!

not a technical possibility, I guess, but the idea is nice...

Anyhow, yes, books can of course be symbols, but they are more than symbols, is all I'm saying.
Maybe its a bit like with Sarte, if I burn a USAmerican Flag, I burn all flags in a way. I make a statement about states and nations, not merely about the USA. If I burn a book, I make a statement that the right way to deal with content one disagrees with is to get rid of it.

One the other hand, I still think that calling for a burn a bible day would be an appropriate response to burn a koran day.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#25 Post by Belgarion » 09 Sep 2010 14:13

It's idiotic, but it should be in your freedom to do it. It will drive some brainless Muslims crazy, while the sane ones will just lean back in their seats and smile about it.

Also, the "don't do it pleaaaeesee, pleaaseeee, otherwise they will kill our lovely troops in Afghanistan" counter-argument is the most disrespectful bullshit in terms of humanity.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#26 Post by spamel » 09 Sep 2010 14:19

Nazis burn books, I don't believe in destroying any book at all. There are some stupid people in this world though, who think burning a symbol of another country makes a huge difference. I laugh out loud when I see people burning the American flag, what the hell does it achieve? And you paid for the flag in the first place! What a waste of time, money and effort! :roll:
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#27 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 15:00

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#28 Post by Joost » 09 Sep 2010 16:54

Guy's not gonna burn the Qur'an anymore. What a flip-flop.
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But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#29 Post by sharpened_graphite » 09 Sep 2010 17:34

Belgarion wrote: Also, the "don't do it pleaaaeesee, pleaaseeee, otherwise they will kill our lovely troops in Afghanistan" counter-argument is the most disrespectful bullshit in terms of humanity.
And why is that?

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#30 Post by ThePKH » 09 Sep 2010 17:40

Burning a few Qurans is not that big of a deal. And it diverts the religious wackos from their real enemy: Heavy Metal music!
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#31 Post by Led Guardian » 09 Sep 2010 18:11

Belgarion wrote:It's idiotic, but it should be in your freedom to do it. It will drive some brainless Muslims crazy, while the sane ones will just lean back in their seats and smile about it.

Also, the "don't do it pleaaaeesee, pleaaseeee, otherwise they will kill our lovely troops in Afghanistan" counter-argument is the most disrespectful bullshit in terms of humanity.
Again, I don't see how saying they shouldn't do something because it will result in the loss of more human life is bullshit. No one has yet explained this to me.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#32 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 18:27

Joost wrote:Guy's not gonna burn the Qur'an anymore. What a flip-flop.
Do you have a source? The latest news I heard was Obama and the Vatican saying that it was a bad idea.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#33 Post by Beren Ercharmion » 09 Sep 2010 19:00

German Newspaper Der Spiegel cites the guy that he "might think about it, if the White House ask him directly not to do it"
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#34 Post by Led Guardian » 09 Sep 2010 19:41

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39079573/ns/world_news

Interpol is now warning about the retaliation that will likely occur if this happens.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#35 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 19:47

"There is a strong likelihood that violent attacks on innocent people would follow," Interpol said in a statement, adding that it was acting partly on a request from Pakistan.
It's stuff like this that partly makes me want to support the burning of the book. Obviously I'm against deliberately hurting a group of people, but there's more at stake here. People angry at someone burning the Qoran? Great, learn how to deal with a free world. Want to retaliate? Great: burn a bible. But if the burning of said book is enough to inspire people to kill other innocent people for no reason at all, then it's safe to say that the book actually does inspire evil and should be made a point against in every way possible - even in a tasteless way like this.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#36 Post by Joost » 09 Sep 2010 19:58

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:It's stuff like this that partly makes me want to support the burning of the book. Obviously I'm against deliberately hurting a group of people, but there's more at stake here. People angry at someone burning the Qoran? Great, learn how to deal with a free world. Want to retaliate? Great: burn a bible. But if the burning of said book is enough to inspire people to kill other innocent people for no reason at all, then it's safe to say that the book actually does inspire evil and should be made a point against in every way possible - even in a tasteless way like this.
As much as this may surprise you, I am almost in agreement with you here. Almost, because I still think burning books (like burning flags) is a hilarious type of act that I mostly associate with people stuck in the 15th century.

If anyone would publicly burn the Dutch flag, I'm at least sure the only thing I'd do is just laugh out really really loud.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#37 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 20:03

Well yeah, of course burning a book is 15th century practice. But burning iPads with a pdf of the Qoran on it just gets too expensive. :P
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#38 Post by Led Guardian » 09 Sep 2010 20:21

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
"There is a strong likelihood that violent attacks on innocent people would follow," Interpol said in a statement, adding that it was acting partly on a request from Pakistan.
It's stuff like this that partly makes me want to support the burning of the book. Obviously I'm against deliberately hurting a group of people, but there's more at stake here. People angry at someone burning the Qoran? Great, learn how to deal with a free world. Want to retaliate? Great: burn a bible. But if the burning of said book is enough to inspire people to kill other innocent people for no reason at all, then it's safe to say that the book actually does inspire evil and should be made a point against in every way possible - even in a tasteless way like this.
I see where you're coming from, but remember, such a belligerent action would only make people more determined to hold their positions. It's a basic human reaction. When you feel your beliefs are under assault, you become more defensive and determined not to be proven wrong. If the goal is to actually change people's minds and teaching them to "deal with a free world," a subtler approach is required. Burning Qu'rans will not help reactionary Muslims learn this, it will just entrench them in their position even more.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#39 Post by Dentarthurdent » 09 Sep 2010 21:06

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
"There is a strong likelihood that violent attacks on innocent people would follow," Interpol said in a statement, adding that it was acting partly on a request from Pakistan.
It's stuff like this that partly makes me want to support the burning of the book. Obviously I'm against deliberately hurting a group of people, but there's more at stake here. People angry at someone burning the Qoran? Great, learn how to deal with a free world. Want to retaliate? Great: burn a bible. But if the burning of said book is enough to inspire people to kill other innocent people for no reason at all, then it's safe to say that the book actually does inspire evil and should be made a point against in every way possible - even in a tasteless way like this.
If you burn a German flag, a couple of mindless nazis will kill you.
If you burn a bible, a couple of mindless ultra-conservative christians will kill you.
If you burn a bunch of old Iron Maiden records, some indless, old school (okay, possibly roaring drunk) Metalfan will kill you.

On the other hand, a huge majority of germans won't care at all.
The huge majority of christians would say "Hey, that's not very nice" - or not care at all.
Most Metalfans will say "Meh, you could just as well have given them to me" - or not care at all.

What I'm trying to say is that it's not the fault of the Qur'an that those mindless islamic fundamentalists want to kill you. But the Qu'ran in itself is not an evil book.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#40 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 22:14

What I'm trying to say is that it's not the fault of the Qur'an that those mindless islamic fundamentalists want to kill you. But the Qu'ran in itself is not an evil book.
True, but I never said the book itself was evil: I merely stated that it can inspire evil deeds. I am quite aware of the fact that not everybody who reads it will instantly turn into a suicide-bombing terrorist. However, it does happen to be a scary thought that there are people who want to answer our freedom of expression with cold-blooded murder. That's backwards no matter how much you think about it. And this kind of attack on freedom should be fought tooth and nail. Not with bullets, bombs or soldiers, but with freedom of expression.

Also, am I the only one to think of Obama's stance as rather remarkable? He asked not to proceed with the burnings because of fear for a terrorist retaliation. Does he have some serious intel about a high threat-level? Likely. This means that he does something very few presidents have done before him: he is letting fear prevail over a constitutional right of the American people. Previous presidents have made a strong point about not giving in to terrorism, giving in to fear, and Obama is doing exactly that.

History will tell if it is a sign of great weakness, great leadership, or both.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#41 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 09 Sep 2010 22:18

Obama has increased US's national debt up to more than all the presidents together,and people are worried about burning a muslim book...only in America lol
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#42 Post by Dentarthurdent » 09 Sep 2010 22:25

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
What I'm trying to say is that it's not the fault of the Qur'an that those mindless islamic fundamentalists want to kill you. But the Qu'ran in itself is not an evil book.
True, but I never said the book itself was evil: I merely stated that it can inspire evil deeds. I am quite aware of the fact that not everybody who reads it will instantly turn into a suicide-bombing terrorist. However, it does happen to be a scary thought that there are people who want to answer our freedom of expression with cold-blooded murder. That's backwards no matter how much you think about it. And this kind of attack on freedom should be fought tooth and nail. Not with bullets, bombs or soldiers, but with freedom of expression.
I, in turn, never said anything against that. But I still think that you don't necessarily have to do anything youre allowed to do. I don't want to cut down the right onf reedom of expression & co, but I think that you should express yourself with a bit of sensibility and respect.
If you know beforehand that a lot of people are somewhat touchy about that topic (and with this I don't mean the aforementioned mindless fanatics, but the vast majority of muslims to whom their holy book is very dear), you could think twice before doing somthing that extreme.

Of course, thohts like that would probably not come across this mindless christian fanatic.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#43 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 09 Sep 2010 22:32

If you know beforehand that a lot of people are somewhat touchy about that topic (and with this I don't mean the aforementioned mindless fanatics, but the vast majority of muslims to whom their holy book is very dear), you could think twice before doing somthing that extreme.
True in a way. But what about drawing Muhammed?
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#44 Post by Dentarthurdent » 09 Sep 2010 23:00

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
If you know beforehand that a lot of people are somewhat touchy about that topic (and with this I don't mean the aforementioned mindless fanatics, but the vast majority of muslims to whom their holy book is very dear), you could think twice before doing somthing that extreme.
True in a way. But what about drawing Muhammed?
First of all: Apart, from the symbol in tiself, these caricatures have another problem: They can be interpreted in different ways. Some may see islamic terrorists merely using religion to jsutify their hate or hide their true intents. Other may see Muhammed himself as a terrorist. And those different interpretations obviously change the matter completely.

But now about the topic of making fun of the Prophet: I see that similar to my point about that burning business: Muhammed is also important to many muslims and a difficult topic. Again, I would vote for sensitivity and respect, even though I personally think that it shouldn't be taken too serious.
But, after all, the muslims have the same right to voice their opinions about it. Maybe some of you have heard that this Muhammed-caricaturist got some award in germany yesterday. Due to that, there was an interview on tv last night with a member of the Central Council of Muslims in Germany, who put that pretty good, I thought, by on the one hand condemning the murder threats and attacks on danish embassies, but on the other hand also telling that German muslims went out to the streets and protested peacefully against this violation of their religious feelings - to which they also have the right.

And even if I think that the muslims are sometimes too fast and too easily angered by such "violations", I have to respect it if they are, even though it may seem pretty stupid and childish to me. The problem with all those rights and freedoms is that they have to belong to everyone, which, in turn, is why they're so great. But difficult as well.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#45 Post by Led Guardian » 09 Sep 2010 23:26

And now the pastor says that they won't do it if the planned Muslim community center is moved. So they're trying to bully another group into not exercising their rights by using their rights to do something that could result in innocents getting killed. Classy.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#46 Post by Belgarion » 09 Sep 2010 23:27

Led Guardian wrote:Again, I don't see how saying they shouldn't do something because it will result in the loss of more human life is bullshit. No one has yet explained this to me.
Because then it's for the wrong reasons why people shouldn't burn books, flags, etc. If you do that, you simply hurt lots of idiots' feelings and anger some others and even produce a few murderers. None of them does good to you. Simply avoid all the three, not only the third.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#47 Post by Led Guardian » 10 Sep 2010 00:04

Belgarion wrote:
Led Guardian wrote:Again, I don't see how saying they shouldn't do something because it will result in the loss of more human life is bullshit. No one has yet explained this to me.
Because then it's for the wrong reasons why people shouldn't burn books, flags, etc. If you do that, you simply hurt lots of idiots' feelings and anger some others and even produce a few murderers. None of them does good to you. Simply avoid all the three, not only the third.
I agree that there are multiple reasons that burning people's holy texts is a bad idea, but murder is the worst and most important of them, so it makes sense to place emphasis on it. It doesn't mean the other reasons are forgotten.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#48 Post by sharpened_graphite » 10 Sep 2010 08:14

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
If you know beforehand that a lot of people are somewhat touchy about that topic (and with this I don't mean the aforementioned mindless fanatics, but the vast majority of muslims to whom their holy book is very dear), you could think twice before doing somthing that extreme.
True in a way. But what about drawing Muhammed?
Personally, as long as the one drawing Muhammad is NOT Muslim, I don't see why Muslims should have a problem with that (unless the drawing itself presents Muhammad in a derogatory light). Muslim commandments are there for Muslims, not all the world, to follow. Muslims don't drink alcohol or eat pork, yet I still haven't heard of Muslim protests because the great majority of the people in the world does these things, same should apply for depicting Muhammad. A religion can't expect those not sworn to it to follow its rules, that is not only arrogant but is a forced imposition of one's beliefs on others.

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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#49 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 10 Sep 2010 09:20

Personally, as long as the one drawing Muhammad is NOT Muslim, I don't see why Muslims should have a problem with that (unless the drawing itself presents Muhammad in a derogatory light). Muslim commandments are there for Muslims, not all the world, to follow. Muslims don't drink alcohol or eat pork, yet I still haven't heard of Muslim protests because the great majority of the people in the world does these things, same should apply for depicting Muhammad. A religion can't expect those not sworn to it to follow its rules, that is not only arrogant but is a forced imposition of one's beliefs on others.
I concur. Yet, the sad reality is that there's a minority following the muslim ideaology who don't agree. There's a number of muslims who believe that the outward jihad is part of religous duty, which in turn justifies acting against the life of those who don't follow allah's rules. That's the same group of people who attacked the twin towers, murdered Theo van Gogh, threatened the lifes of cartoonists and threaten with violence against innocent non-believers when a stack of Qorans is burned.

In all honesty: I see more parralels than difference between burning a Qoran in the free country of America, and drawing a picture of Muhammed in the free country of Denmark.
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Re: Burning the Qoran on 9/11

#50 Post by Joost » 10 Sep 2010 09:38

There is no 'Muslim ideology' imo. Wahhabist fundamentalists probably have about as much in common with Sufi mystics as I have in common with Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church. I really don't see how they can be said to follow the same ideology in any sense of the word 'ideology'. The Qur'an itself contains as much ambiguity and internal contradictions as the Bible: you cannot just get one single ideology out of a book like that. (And don't even start about the Hadith/Sharia/etc. To start with, the two main factions in Islam -- Shia and Sunni Muslims -- disagree quite strongly about e.g. which texts constitute the Hadith.)
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