Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

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Belgarion
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Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#1 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 10:32

Israel Attacks Boats Headed to Gaza
JERUSALEM — The Israeli Navy attacked a flotilla carrying thousands of tons of supplies for Gaza on Monday morning, killing at least 10 people, according to the Israeli military and activists traveling with the flotilla. The Israeli Defense Forces said naval personnel boarding the six ships in the flotilla met with “live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs.”

Named the Freedom Flotilla, and led by the Free Gaza Movement and a Turkish organization, Insani Yardim Vakfi, the convoy was the most ambitious attempt yet to break Israel’s three-year blockade of Gaza. About 600 passengers were said to be aboard the vessels, including the 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Mairead Corrigan-Maguire of Northern Ireland, and a Holocaust survivor, Hedy Epstein, 85.

“They attacked us this morning in international waters,” said Ms. Berlin. “According to the coordinates, we were 70 miles off the Israeli coast.”
Congratulations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world ... la.html?hp
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64T21820100531
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#2 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 10:38

As usual, the International Community will turn a blind eye to it. There was a prominent Israeli on the BBC earlier on, and I was outraged at the fact that they had no evidence whatsoever that arms or munitions were on board, but they still sent armed troops on board. I think Israel should be held to account for this and other crimes against humanity. They are hypocrites, they bleated enough when the Germans were gassing Jews all over the place but they are basically doing the same thing. I'm starting to understand the Jew thread elsewhere now!
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#3 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 12:16

spamel wrote:As usual, the International Community will turn a blind eye to it. There was a prominent Israeli on the BBC earlier on, and I was outraged at the fact that they had no evidence whatsoever that arms or munitions were on board, but they still sent armed troops on board. I think Israel should be held to account for this and other crimes against humanity. They are hypocrites, they bleated enough when the Germans were gassing Jews all over the place but they are basically doing the same thing. I'm starting to understand the Jew thread elsewhere now!
I lost all my sympathy for Israel after this massacre. They just proved their means are so wrong handling the whole Palestine situation. This time I don't think that the world will turn a blind eye to this. Some serious action against Israel is a must.

At least 6 dead Turkish civilians among the 19 killed. Isreal just lost its number 1 ally in the Middle-East.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#4 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 12:21

It is basically an act of piracy at best or an act of war at worst. Boarding a vessel by force, armed, and in international waters is an all out aggressive and indefensible act. They need their bums smacking, big style!
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#5 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 13:36

So you expect soldiers not to retaliate when stabbed or shot upon? Or to stay unarmed when taking over a hostile vessel by force?
Do you also think that lying about the humanitarian aims of that fleet was a legitimate and just thing?
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#6 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 13:46

Hostile vessel? Lying about the humanitarian aid? Stabbed and shot? Yeah, they are 600 evil armed terrorists on the ships from all over the world bringing food and medicine to evil Gazza people.

Have you ever heard about the term UNPROPORTIONAL FORCE?

One of the sides is Israeli Defense Force, a strong army with all the high-tech equipment at their disposal, on the other hand 600 civilians most probably only a few carrying knives.

Yeah, the results had to be 20 dead.

Just don't.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#7 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 14:03

Belgarion wrote:600 civilians most probably only a few carrying knives.
What are civilians carrying "humanitarian aid" doing with knives in the first place? (knives that were used to stab soldiers, not to mention a few guns and metal batons)
Out of the 6 boats, only 1 boat acted violently, the rest didn't, and so didn't sustain any wounded people. And those boats didn't care about bringing humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza, all they cared about was breaking the maritime siege (edit: and also apparently attacking soldiers). If they really cared about bringing humanitarian supplies, they would have transferred them over land, as they were offered, either through Israel or through Egypt. They also wouldn't have refused to bring some supplies to the Israeli soldier held captive in Gaza, without any contact with the outside world since 4 years, if their intentions were really humanitarian.
And there weren't any confirmations of 20 people dead yet, mind you.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#8 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 14:15

What is wrong with a ship having knives on board? A seaman would probably have need of a knife, and defending a ship in international waters that is being boarded by armed people would have the ships crew picking p whatever they have to hand in defence. I also do not believe the reports from the Israeli side, they will of course say there were weapons on board! They had no evidence whatsoever that there were any kind of weapons on board, so they assaulted a civilian aid ship with armed trained soldiers. I feel it is disproportional force.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#9 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 14:23

No‘am wrote:So you expect soldiers not to retaliate when stabbed or shot upon? Or to stay unarmed when taking over a hostile vessel by force?
Do you also think that lying about the humanitarian aims of that fleet was a legitimate and just thing?
They shouldn't have been there, it is international waters and they have committed a crime. Their injuries are their own fault and the deaths of the people legitimately onboard is blood on the IDF's and Israeli governments hands. There is no argment to be made for the IDF, they were acting illegally.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#10 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 14:24

Why should you believe any side, if you automatically don't believe on side? How deep at sea was the attack that makes it in international waters?
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#11 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 14:34

No‘am wrote:Why should you believe any side, if you automatically don't believe on side? How deep at sea was the attack that makes it in international waters?
40 miles out at sea, I'd say it was international waters! I don't automatically believe either side, but when a country acts as if it is above the law and acts aggressively time and time again, then you can forgive me for believing that as the undoubted aggressors in this (and also with an Israeli Minister stating that they categorically had no evidence of any weapons or munitions being on board) then they are the ones to blame and should be held to account. Israel have acted outrageously towards the Palestinians, if the shoe was on the other foot then how would they feel?
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#12 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 14:52

I just hate this goddamn fucking Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I am still baffled by the fact that people still prefer choosing one side or another over being amazed by the pointlessness and idiocy of the entire fucking conflict. With this finger-pointing attitude things won't be getting better in the next 50 years.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#13 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 14:57

My concern isn't the conflict, it is the blatant disregard of international law. They can do what they want within the confines of their own country, but they should abide by international law when they are not in their own country, same as everybody else.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#14 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 15:06

I think human lives are more important than international law. International law is a means, not an end.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#15 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 15:08

Joost wrote:I think human lives are more important than international law. International law is a means, not an end.
If it had been obeyed, instead of doing their own thing, the the lives wouldn't have been lost. This is why I say it is criminal, and they should be called to account for it.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#16 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 15:09

That's true, but I definitely don't accept "They can do what they want within the confines of their own country" either. And in some cases, I think violations of international law are justified.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
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We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#17 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 15:15

Joost wrote:That's true, but I definitely don't accept "They can do what they want within the confines of their own country" either. And in some cases, I think violations of international law are justified.
I'm not saying they should do what they want, but if they must do it then do it in their own country!
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#18 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 31 May 2010 15:18

They, and not only they, but basically everyone, should stop going back to those nonsense "eye for an eye" style politics. I don't care who fired first, as long as everybody just stops shooting!
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#19 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 15:25

According to bbc.co.uk, it was international waters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm
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And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#20 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 15:26

Gandalf de Grijze wrote:They, and not only they, but basically everyone, should stop going back to those nonsense "eye for an eye" style politics. I don't care who fired first, as long as everybody just stops shooting!
+1
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#21 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 16:28

So the whole world should turn a blind eye to what Isreal did and move on, since the "clash" is over?
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#22 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 17:55

No, but people should start thinking about more constructive solutions rather than waylaying every plan that may lead to a solution by finger-pointing.

As for this incident: everyone has their judgement ready but there are three sides to every story.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#23 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 18:03

Yes, and by constructive plans I understand forcing Israel through the UN to lift the Gazza barricade or put some serious embargo against them so that this time they won't easily get away with it.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#24 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 18:06

Belgarion wrote:Yes, and by constructive plans I understand forcing Israel through the UN to lift the Gazza barricade or put some serious embargo against them so that this time they won't easily get away with it.
Personally I wouldn't be opposed to that, as Gaza formally isn't Israeli territory anyway (at least, according to the borders officially recognized by the UN).
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#25 Post by t.a.j. » 31 May 2010 18:54

All conflict is conflict about something, the control of which is contested. Ending the conflict means ending the contest over control of whatever the various parties are interested in. This can go in two ways: "Leave it to them" or "Make them leave it to you".
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#26 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 19:07

Sounds a lot like 'you're either with us or against us', and seems to me to be just as much a false dichotomy.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#27 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 19:18

Another one of these topics?

As in all cases, facts are the most reliable foundation for an opinion and are infinitely preferable to prejudice, nationalism and anti-zionism. Let's look at the facts so far, based on BBC's reports.

- The Israeli army fired on a convoy of boats resulting in the deaths of 9 people.
- It happened 64 km out to the sea, in international waters
- The boats were used by political activists
- The activists used the boats to cross a known boundary imposed by the Israeli to protect the country from the terrorist organisation Hamas.
- The activists were warned in advance not to cross the boundary

Then there is the fact that there are two unconfirmed explanations:

- The Israeli claimed the boatsmen were armed and opened fire on the Israeli first
- The boatsmen claimed the Israeli opened fire first even though they were sailing under a white flag.

Looking at the facts above, I couldn't point my finger to either side of the conflict and say "these are the bad guys!". The first line of facts could raise suspicion towards either side of the party, and the second unconfirmed explanations don't get us anywhere either, as they oppose eachtother and are both impossible to confirm or deny by us, the outsiders who weren't there. So all in all I find no justification for Belgarion's dismission of Israel in this specific example based on the facts, meaning that they are likely fuelled by prejudice, nationalism or anti-zionism. None of those help us advance this conflict any further.

Just as I quoted a famous politician in the last thread, I would like to repeat the same quote right here: "this war represents a failure to listen." Or to put it in other words: please stop this anti-Israelian jihad, as this is getting us nowhere.
Last edited by The Rider Of Rohan on 31 May 2010 21:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#28 Post by t.a.j. » 31 May 2010 19:49

Well, someone has to give up their claim. Or find a compromise where everyone gives up part of their claim. Any which way, to resolve a conflict, at least one party has to give up on something. And someone has to be the first to do that. Compromise is not always possible and the further the actual interests of the parties are mired in propaganda and hidden behind a blood feud mentality, the more difficult it is to sort things out one way or another. But in principle, making peace requires some kind of surrender, some kind of giving up. And that is something that is very hard to sell in politics.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#29 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 20:17

It seems most of the world leaders and powers that be are condemning the attacks, all except the US. Obviously, the Jews have loads of money and power in America, so no surprise there!
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#30 Post by t.a.j. » 31 May 2010 20:23

ok.
Israel =/= The Jews.
Usually, that goes for any state and it's citizens. America =/= The Americans,... but with "the jews" you can either talk about a people, a religious community, or a strange amalgam of both. But no matter how you define "the jews", they are a diverse group, some supporting, other's condemning Israeli politics. Also, remember to fuck them.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#31 Post by spamel » 31 May 2010 20:27

t.a.j. wrote:ok.
Israel =/= The Jews.
Usually, that goes for any state and it's citizens. America =/= The Americans,... but with "the jews" you can either talk about a people, a religious community, or a strange amalgam of both. But no matter how you define "the jews", they are a diverse group, some supporting, other's condemning Israeli politics. Also, remember to fuck them.
After recent days, too right! I still don't think that is the point in the thread, but I hope it is. And they wonder why they got vilified and persecuted.....! :roll:
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#32 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 20:31

spamel wrote:It seems most of the world leaders and powers that be are condemning the attacks, all except the US. Obviously, the Jews have loads of money and power in America, so no surprise there!
Now, please don't go and blame an entire ethnoreligious group which consists of 15 million people living on six continents for the deeds of the government of one country.

That's the same as blaming all metalheads for the Columbine shootings.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#33 Post by t.a.j. » 31 May 2010 20:35

No, not like that.
More like this.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#34 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 20:42

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:So all in all I find no justification for Belgarion's hate towards Israel in this specific example based on the facts, meaning that they are likely fuelled by prejudice, nationalism or anti-zionism. None of those help us advance this conflict any further.
I don't hate Israel. How did you pull it from what I said? I'm just done with turning a blind eye to whatever these guys are doing in Middle-East as if they are Gods and sympathizing with their "Jewish cause". They screwed it. They might have been right, but that's not the way anymore. They became just like the ones they fought: terrorists.

What specific facts do you want? It should be enough for anyone that the only fact that matters is around 20 people are dead just because some guys suspiciously started to attack the Israeli Defense Force, one of the most powerful and high-tech. armies in the world, upon being raided in international waters, and getting slaughtered in the end. To what end? Dying for another land's cause even though you know that the world won't give a shit about it after 3 days?

P.S.

I think we all know who in this forum are prejudiced, especially against Muslims. So please stop accusing me for being prejudiced, nationalist or anti-zionist. I'm neither of these. I've expressed my outrage several times for Muslims and/or other particular people on these forums when I saw fit. I can't accept how Israel handled the situation, sorry. No humanitarian should.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#35 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 21:15

I don't hate Israel. How did you pull it from what I said? I'm just done with turning a blind eye to whatever these guys are doing in Middle-East as if they are Gods and sympathizing with their "Jewish cause". They screwed it. They might have been right, but that's not the way anymore. They became just like the ones they fought: terrorists.
I pull that from your posts in which you instantly blame Israel without having any substantial facts to back up your accusations. Right now there's nothing that proves or disproves the guilt of either party aside from contradicting testimonials and blurry night-vision video's on youtube. I sure as hell am not able to judge either side for what happens on that boat and you - unlike you have some devine knowledge of 42 - cannot either. The fact that you are dragging the 'gods' rhetoric and the jewish cause into this discussion, make it come across as if you were waiting for an excuse to post a dismissive message and reached for your keyboard as soon as you found one in the newspapers today.

But to give you some credit, I edited my first post in this topic somewhat. You are nowhere near the bully Spammel is. :wink:
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#36 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 21:27

The Rider Of Rohan wrote: I pull that from your posts in which you instantly blame Israel without having any substantial facts to back up your accusations. Right now there's nothing that proves or disproves the guilt of either party aside from contradicting testimonials and blurry night-vision video's on youtube. I sure as hell am not able to judge either side for what happens on that boat and you - unlike you have some devine knowledge of 42 - cannot either. The fact that you are dragging the 'gods' rhetoric and the jewish cause into this discussion, make it come across as if you were waiting for an excuse to post a dismissive message and reached for your keyboard as soon as you found one in the newspapers today.

But to give you some credit, I edited my first post in this topic somewhat. You are nowhere near the bully Spammel is. :wink:
Thanks, now I feel much better that I got your approval.

Anyway, since you didn't answer my other questions, I assume it's fairly normal to you that IDF special commandos are allowed to kill lots of civilians at will when they attack ships in international waters and find resistance with clubs and knives.

Cool.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#37 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 21:38

No, that's not the case. Thing is, it is impossible to base an opinion on the information given. We all know that you'd have to be pretty dumb to sail a convoy through a blockade patrolled by the Israeli navy, especially after you have been warned not to four days ago. I suppose necessity could drive a man to do such a thing, but the fact that Israeli offered a transport of the carried goods to Gaza negates that.

So there are a couple of possibilities:

a) This was a deliberate provocation of Israel, who retaliated instantly by killing the first 19 people they saw on board, thus setting an example for the rest of the world.
b) This was a set-up by a group or possibly a subgroup of extremists who aspired martyrdom, and Israel walked right into their trap. They deliberately provoked Israel knowing they would be boarded, opened fire on the marines and were killed in self-defence.
c) These people were really, really stupid.

Based on my gut feeling I would go for b), but until we learn the truth (if we ever do) we're in the dark, which means that the most sensible thing is not to judge and look for a peaceful solution.
Last edited by The Rider Of Rohan on 31 May 2010 23:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#38 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 21:41

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:b) This was a set-up by a group or possibly a subgroup of extremists who aspired martyrdom, and Israel walked right into their trap. They deliberately provoked Israel knowing they would be boarded, opened fire on the marines and were killed in self-defence.
The people on the ship definitely weren't just "a group of extremists". The ships included people from many different backgrounds, including members of the European Parliament, a Nobel Prize winner, Israeli Jews, and journalists. I think it's very unlikely that they all were Hamas-supporting extremists.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#39 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 21:45

Not all of them, but some could have been. Then again it could also have been a). Or c). Let's just wait and see.

An old proverb says the first thing to die in a war is the truth, so let's not let emotion and hasty reasoning allow us to draw early conclusions.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#40 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 21:57

I could bring you the facts and explanations, as they were reported here in the media and through the accounts of some of the soldiers that took part in the takeover and were on board, with videos filmed by the IDF of what took place and what was part of the reason soldiers opened live fire, that is, if any of you care.
One thing, about the ships: there were 6 of them, one, where most of the "action" took place, that acted violently with people on board attacking the soldiers, and the other 5 which didn't resist violently when stormed by soldiers (as peace activists should). So definitely not all where "extremists", although I wouldn't exactly call them people wanting to bring humanitarian aid and supplies to Gaza, since it wasn't one of their top priorities (and for some, it wasn't a priority at all).
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#41 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 31 May 2010 22:03

Well, if that really was their only and highest priority they could have transferred it over land. Given the options that would have been my choice anyway.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#42 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 22:06

Haaretz provides the following picture of the incident:

Image

With the caption "A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife after Israel Navy commandos boarded their ship on May 31, 2010."

There's a lot of discussion whether this is really a picture of the incident. If so, who took it? And why are the people behind him being so relaxed and taking pictures as if this is just a show thing?

edit: looking a bit closer, it looks quite Photoshopped. The third guy from the left in the background looks just copy/pasted on the background scene, as do some others.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#43 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 22:10

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:b) This was a set-up by a group or possibly a subgroup of extremists who aspired martyrdom, and Israel walked right into their trap. They deliberately provoked Israel knowing they would be boarded, opened fire on the marines and were killed in self-defence.
I don't buy this "they opened fire on the marines" argument. To do that, they would need firearms on the ship which doesn't really sound very possible since these ships were most probably controlled by some international maritime authority before setting sail. And the number of dead activists? At least 10. Wounded? Over 50. That means lots of firearms on the ship, if it is really like how IDF defenses itself e.g. they retaliated only at those who opened fire. Sorry, but this reeks of disproportional force usage all over to me.

The way I see it, some group tries to defend the ship against the raiding IDF troops with what they got; chairs, clubs etc. At some point the situation gets out of control and firearms get used. The result: at least 10 dead activists and over 50 wounded behind.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#44 Post by Belgarion » 31 May 2010 22:13

Joost wrote:Haaretz provides the following picture of the incident:

Image

With the caption "A left-wing activist on board the Gaza flotilla holding a knife after Israel Navy commandos boarded their ship on May 31, 2010."

There's a lot of discussion whether this is really a picture of the incident. If so, who took it? And why are the people behind him being so relaxed and taking pictures as if this is just a show thing?

edit: looking a bit closer, it looks quite Photoshopped. The third guy from the left in the background looks just copy/pasted on the background scene, as do some others.
Oh, c'mon. One guy is even clapping his hands and it's not even dark outside. The incident happened in the dark.

I don't even think it's photoshopped, it's just an irrelevant picture taken somewhere else.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#45 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 22:24

Good point, the entering happened at about 4:00 Israeli time. Even though the sun was, at the approximate location, only 8 degrees below the horizon (and it would be 'early twilight', sunrise at Gaza is at about 5:38 Israeli time), it definitely wouldn't be bright like this outside.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#46 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 22:34

This Youtube video looks more like actual footage from the ship.

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=DSFwyWyVo74

It's not entirely dark anymore (time is about 5:00 there), but it seems quite unlikely to me that this video and the picture taken are from the same ship.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#47 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 22:37

Joost, do you have a link of where you got that photo? Seems really odd to me too, especially since Haaretz is quite a political, left-winged newspaper. Plus, I would've expected it to be all over other websites.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#48 Post by Joost » 31 May 2010 22:38

Noam: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089

I know about Haaretz being a more leftish newspaper, that's why this surprised me quite a bit too.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#49 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 22:59

Thanks Joost, still seems odd to me, I couldn't find it in the Hebrew site.

Here are some videos of what happened on one of the ships of what caused some soldiers to open fire.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

They basically stormed the ships, armed with paint-ball guns mounted on their backs and with pistols with live ammo. The soldiers that were later interviewed claimed that once they landed on the deck they got ganged upon and beaten with metal clubs. They were ordered not to use their live pistols other than as a last resort when under a life-threatening attack, and in stead use their paint ball guns. One of the soldiers says that after he got attacked he shot back with the paint gun, and once that got smashed and he was knocked down and felt that his hand was broken he took out his pistol and fired live ammo into the legs of those that were beating him from point blank, which caused them to back off. The soldiers also say how live ammo was fired at them from one of the corridors. You can see in the videos the one of the soldiers getting thrown off deck, he fell about 10 metres, was badly wounded and fell unconscious, and after that the soldiers got permission from their superiors to use deadly force if they felt under mortal threat, since that was a blatant attempt at killing a soldier. That's what was reported here.
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Re: Israel getting in deep shit each passing day

#50 Post by No‘am » 31 May 2010 23:04

By the way, Belgarion, Israel and Turkey will continue to stay allies, probably at least till Israel decides to publicly relate to a certain controversial subject in some way, and maybe even stay allied after that.
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