Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

In this section, you can talk relaxedly about everyday matters, and also engage in more serious discussions. Please try to keep this place accessible to everyone and write your posts in English.
Message
Author
User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#51 Post by Daijin » 13 May 2010 23:39

I Pity The Fool wrote:Atleast now I understand why Daigin took the stance he did. The bias is clear. First I thought he might be one of those Germans with massive guilt over the past.
It's pretty exciting how you manage to get yourself deeper and deeper into your resentment with every sentence your write. Would you care to explain what constitutes my bias and what enlightened you about the reasons for my stance?

Noam: You got my wrong. I'd like to work but my workplace will be closed.
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#52 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 00:15

Resentment? I already covered that so let's leave that out.

With your talk about shabat I assumed you're Jewish. It's not as if Jews don't have negative feelings about Arabs now is it?
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#53 Post by Daijin » 14 May 2010 00:32

I Pity The Fool wrote:It's not as if Jews don't have negative feelings about Arabs now is it?
Resentment?

You're taking yourself apart. Don't you see that?
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#54 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 00:43

Not really, Mr. Dershowitz. The issue of Israel-Palestine doesn't eat me up inside, it's not that big a concern of mine. But I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
No‘am
Posts: 614
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 19:47
Location: 42/13, Mt. Scopus/ rivertown, Western Galillee
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#55 Post by No‘am » 14 May 2010 01:05

Daijin wrote:Noam: You got my wrong. I'd like to work but my workplace will be closed.
I was just joking, I wasn't serious :)
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

イン ウィーノー ウェーリタース

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#56 Post by End Of An Era » 14 May 2010 01:41

I Pity The Fool wrote:I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
what does israel stand for? :?

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#57 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 07:57

I Pity The Fool wrote:Not really, Mr. Dershowitz. The issue of Israel-Palestine doesn't eat me up inside, it's not that big a concern of mine. But I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
This statement goes quite far in terms of what is acceptable and what not, but I'll follow my own rule 3. What are the facts that you base your loathing on? Please, give us a list so we can judge your critiscism on its own merits.

And who exactly is Mr. Dershowitz?
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
Metal Fan
Posts: 1854
Joined: 28 Mar 2008 07:49
Location: In Angband, chatting with Melkor and learning how to rule the world!

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#58 Post by Metal Fan » 14 May 2010 08:09

He just wants to piss us off!

I think that Mr.Dershowzit is Daijin.
⋨The Dagor Dagorath, the great final battle at which the forces of the brothers Manwë and Melkor will face one another, and Arda will be unmade.⋩
Is in with Bender on his plan
Blind Guardian wrote:A fairly small but absolutely bravehearted crowd in Tempe has made that a night remember. Marcus(on behalf of the band) says: Thank you:-)

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#59 Post by Daijin » 14 May 2010 09:46

Alan Dershowitz, a Jewish American lawyer. For some strange reason he thinks that's insulting to me.
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#60 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 10:30

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:Not really, Mr. Dershowitz. The issue of Israel-Palestine doesn't eat me up inside, it's not that big a concern of mine. But I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
This statement goes quite far in terms of what is acceptable and what not,

Why, pray tell? Did I unknowingly stumble upon a Israeli forum?

Israel's record says it all. It's quite simple.
Death to gay power metal!

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#61 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 10:31

Daijin wrote:Alan Dershowitz, a Jewish American lawyer. For some strange reason he thinks that's insulting to me.
Not only that, but a completely discredited pro-zionist Israel loving whitewasher of Israeli history.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#62 Post by End Of An Era » 14 May 2010 10:55

End Of An Era wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
what does israel stand for? :?
again...

User avatar
Desert_Storm
Posts: 784
Joined: 20 Jun 2004 13:13
Location: Zürich/Vienna
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#63 Post by Desert_Storm » 14 May 2010 13:34

Metal Fan wrote: I think that Mr.Dershowzit is Daijin.
:lol:
I, too, am a neat guy. And I, too, am just a love machine
Also, a stupid europeoid with snake primitive language

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#64 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 17:42

End Of An Era wrote:
End Of An Era wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
what does israel stand for? :?
again...
I Pity The Fool wrote:
Israel's record says it all. It's quite simple.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#65 Post by End Of An Era » 14 May 2010 17:55

I Pity The Fool wrote:Israel's record says it all. It's quite simple.
what does israel's record say?

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#66 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 17:57

Run along now, I'm sure you have plenty of other things to do.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#67 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 18:38

I Pity The Fool wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:Not really, Mr. Dershowitz. The issue of Israel-Palestine doesn't eat me up inside, it's not that big a concern of mine. But I do detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for.
This statement goes quite far in terms of what is acceptable and what not,

Why, pray tell? Did I unknowingly stumble upon a Israeli forum?
No, on a Israel-forum you would've been banned for life. Fortunately we do things differently on this board, and I would like to live up to my own rules and adhere rule 3. So I repeat my question:
Please, give us a list so we can judge your critiscism on its own merits.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
End Of An Era
Posts: 5872
Joined: 11 Apr 2004 00:56
Location: here, duh!

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#68 Post by End Of An Era » 14 May 2010 18:40

I Pity The Fool wrote:Run along now, I'm sure you have plenty of other things to do.
not until later this evening. :P
I just want to make sure you know what you are talking about. i guess you don't :P

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#69 Post by Daijin » 14 May 2010 19:24

Joost wrote: From your [Thu May 06, 2010 9:00] post, I got the impression that a point of discussion here, was the distinction between 'not accepting Israelis called Nazis' and 'not allowing criticizing Israel'. I had the impression that you were trying to point out that the girl was not doing the latter, but rather the former. I agree on that, but I also think that this is (in all likelihood, but difficult to determine as I still have not heard the preceding speech by Finkelstein) probably a misrepresentation of what Finkelstein actually said. Hence I wanted to point out that Finkelstein is not simply "saying the Jews are Nazis".
Ok, it seems like there's some common ground here that makes further discussion of this topic unneccessary. What's left is the question what any of the people in the video might have or might not have said.

I understand the criticism of quoting single sentences. I do consider the context and if I go on quoting only short paragraphs I do this for practical reasons: it keeps the postings clearer, allows for more structure and also for comments that are directed specifically to certain statements. Tell me, whenever you consider a quotation unfair or out of context.
In this sense, Fascism can on one side be considered a strongly Romantic movement, but on the other side, going much beyond that which was traditionally called Nationalism. Many historical and also current Nationalist movements (including movements like the IRA and ETA, but, of course, also Labour Zionism) were born from an ideal of every people having the right to self-rule and self-determination, and are essentially leftist movements. Fascism adds to this a mystical component, exemplified by the all-embracingness of the State. Another, related, concept to this, is that of the Blut und Boden ideology, in which a mystical connection is postulated to a people, and the land that is connected to this people.
I agree with most of the definition, especially the part about the role of the state, except the part about the connection of localiy with a people - if I got you right here. This can be used for a fascist ideology but it doesn't have to. The special relationship of the Jewish people to Erez Israel and especially Jerusalem is thousands of years old. Jerusalem is mentioned in most of the standard prayers of Judaism. "Next year in Jerusalem" was something like our "happy new year". Judaism is strongly connected to certain places from the bible. It's part of the character of the religion. But that doesn't make it fascist. And other than the Blut und Boden-ideology of the Nazis it doesn't include the total devaluation of other peoples and their connection to the place.

And if you take the argument of a mystical or better religious element of a nationalism being fascist serious you'd consequently have to call every nationalism that is connected with Islam fascist because of the islamic concept that every piece of land that has ever been ruled by muslims must be reconquered (supposed it was lost to non-muslims - like Spain or Palestine for example).
but I do mean to say that certain political parties, that have played a significant role in Israel's history have a certain affinity with the same type of thought that also resulted in fascism.

The answer here is, of course, connected to the Likud party, and the movements that preceded it. The most 'interesting' figure, in this regard, is perhaps Abba Ahimeir, who was not only sympathetical to Mussolini's fascism, but also incorporated core fascist ideas (as laid out in Mussollini's essay) into his own ideology. Most significantly, he incorporated ideas about current culture being degenerated by liberalism and individualism -- the type of ideas that is much likelier to feed fascism, than it is to feed any other type of nationalist thought. Of course, Abba Ahimeir, and his naitonal-messianic current were not the main current even within the nationalist Revisionist Zionism movement.
The last sentence of this paragraph is an important one. You're picking out a single person with fascist ideas. You could most certainly do that with every single nationalism on this planet. But how significant was this particular person? One hint, not a proof though, gives Wikipedia: The English article doesn't give more than a few biographical details and three sentences about his ideology. A German article doesn't even exist. The Hebrew article tells a little more about his background and his conection to the revisionist movement. It also depicts him as a fighter against Nazism. But honestly, I don't know much about him.
But it was there -- and it has been of significance influence on the Likud party and some of its important figures, such as Benjamin Netanyahu.
Much more important for the revisionist movement was Ze'ev Jabotinski, the real idol of people like Menachem Begin. Now, when dealing with these figure one mustn't forget that they were in the center of an ideological struggle in the Zionist movement as a whole. For almost 40 years the sozialist part of the movement has been dominant and was able to shape or at least influence the image of their opponents. In the eyes of Labour, anti-socialists like Jabotinski and Begin were of course fascist - they were their main political enemy. Ben Gurion even refused a burial of Jabotinskis body in Israel when he died abroad.
In order to get out of the ideological entrenchment one could judge people like Begin or Netanyahu on their politics when they are/were in power. And you'll find it quite difficult to discover the fascism there. On the contrary, Sharon was surprised and sometimes annoyed of Begin's legalism and fierce advocacy of democratic procedures in his government. Begin's cabinet was actually more democratic then those of his Labour predecessors.

One last sentence about Ahimeir's influence:
Most significantly, he incorporated ideas about current culture being degenerated by liberalism and individualism
One of the founding parties of the Likud was the Liberal Party.
Other than this, there's of course also the Irgun movement, who, under Menachem Begin was responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, until now still the single most deadly terrorist attack in the history of the Israeli-Palestine conflict. His movement, Irgun, was classified as a terrorist organization right after the founding of Israel as a state in 1948 -- by the Israeli government itself. 31 years later, Menachem Begin became the first prime minister for Likud in Israel's history and, ironically, went on to win the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later.
What's ironical about that? He got the prize for the first peace treaty of Israel with an Arab nation for which he gave up territory three times as big as Israel proper, thus demonstrating his true commitment to peace. Arafat on the other hand got his Nobel Peace Prize for promising to not murder Jews anymore - a promise he didn't even keep. Now, that's not even ironic anymore, but I digress.

For the record: I do believe that the Jews were right to fight a British regime that was responsible for Jews dying in concentration camps even after the end of WWII. But I do not agree with terrorist acts like the bombing of the King David Hotel.
Essentially, all of Likud's prime ministers with the exception of Sharon (before he left Likud) -- Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu -- have a connection to either the Lehi or the Irgun movements
How can Netanyahu have a connection to organisations that didn't exist anymore when he was born? Or what do you mean?

In general, you seem to identify the Likud with everything questionable about the Israeli past. But as I mentioned before, the Likud was and is a democratic organisation and its rise in the 70s actually strengthened Israel's democratic character and broke the political monopoly of Labour. And what's the connection between the Likud and the assassination of Rabin?

About Lechi and Irgun: First of all, they weren't hostile towards Arabs because of any racist ideology. Like the Haganah they were founded as resistance groups against the British administration and as a reaction to Arab raids and progromes. As I said, bombing a hotel with civillians inside is not justifiable but fighting back against the many Arab attacks on Jewish communities in Palestine is - even with illegal means, since buying guns and military training was forbidden by the British regime. And a last important thing: The declaration of the state of Israel marked the end of those organisations.
As you can see, I have little to nothing positive to say about the Likud party -- either about its history, or about its current manifestation; and as far as I am concerned, their rhetorics and their actions are really nothing better than those of e.g. Hamas.
Oh my. On the one hand you have a Likud-premier who officially declares his endorsement for the two state solution. On the other hand you have an antisemitic terrorist organisation that time and again declares its intention to destroy Israel and to kill Jews everywhere in the world. And you see no difference?
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#70 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 20:05

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
This statement goes quite far in terms of what is acceptable and what not,

Why, pray tell? Did I unknowingly stumble upon a Israeli forum?
No, on a Israel-forum you would've been banned for life. Fortunately we do things differently on this board, and I would like to live up to my own rules and adhere rule 3. So I repeat my question:
Please, give us a list so we can judge your critiscism on its own merits.

So criticism of a country is according to you close to being unacceptable? Is that another one of your own rules?

A list? Go look it up. Israel's list of state crimes are not hard to find.
Death to gay power metal!

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#71 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 20:11

Daijin wrote:What's ironical about that? He got the prize for the first peace treaty of Israel with an Arab nation for which he gave up territory three times as big as Israel proper, thus demonstrating his true commitment to peace.

Utterly unbelievable. That dose of zionist support is going to take some beating now, even from you, Mr. Dershowitz.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Daijin
Posts: 161
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 23:30
Location: Braunschweig (meaning Brunswick, Annie), Germany
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#72 Post by Daijin » 14 May 2010 20:17

What exactly is utterly unbelievable? The facts?
So, supposed a robot wants to kill all the humans that makes him "a radical".
- Bender
Well, the truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination.
- Elim Garak

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#73 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 20:19

No remotely sane person would describe Begin as a peaceful person. But then zionists have different values entirely.

Image
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#74 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 20:25

I Pity The Fool wrote:So criticism of a country is according to you close to being unacceptable? Is that another one of your own rules?

A list? Go look it up. Israel's list of state crimes are not hard to find.
You didn't criticize Israel, you wrote that you "detest Israel and loathe everything it stands for" which is something different. Criticise is judgement of merits using analysis and evaluation, something that couldn't be that hard to define when you have put though into it. It apparently has something to do with crimes, so I ask you.... which crimes make you loathe and detest?
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#75 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 20:34

How about all of them? :roll:
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#76 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 20:49

I give up. There's no sense in trying to listen to what you have to say if you are unable to put your opinion into words.

Oh well, something else. I almost forgot that is was May 14th. Congratulation to all the Israelians on the forum with the anniversary of your state!
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#77 Post by Joost » 14 May 2010 20:58

Daijin wrote:I agree with most of the definition, especially the part about the role of the state, except the part about the connection of localiy with a people - if I got you right here. This can be used for a fascist ideology but it doesn't have to. The special relationship of the Jewish people to Erez Israel and especially Jerusalem is thousands of years old. Jerusalem is mentioned in most of the standard prayers of Judaism. "Next year in Jerusalem" was something like our "happy new year". Judaism is strongly connected to certain places from the bible. It's part of the character of the religion. But that doesn't make it fascist. And other than the Blut und Boden-ideology of the Nazis it doesn't include the total devaluation of other peoples and their connection to the place.
I do not think that the Jewish religion is fascist in any way (in fact, the mere idea of a 'fascist religion' is almost contradictory already, as it contradicts the fascist tenet that there can be no source of spirituality outside the state). Zionism, however, was of course for a large part secular rather than religious, and while most Zionists definitely weren't 'fascists' in any sense, some of them most likely were (particularly the ones I already named).

As for the last sentence: deportation of other peoples, which is something that I would call "the total devaluation of other peoples and their connection to the place" was not merely something Irgun wanted to achieve, but something that actually was achieved during the 1948 Palestinian exodus.
And if you take the argument of a mystical or better religious element of a nationalism being fascist serious you'd consequently have to call every nationalism that is connected with Islam fascist because of the islamic concept that every piece of land that has ever been ruled by muslims must be reconquered (supposed it was lost to non-muslims - like Spain or Palestine for example).
I tried quite hard to be precise accurate when describing e.g. the different movements within Zionism, and the internal disagreements. Talking about "every nationalism that is connected with Islam" is less subtle. About which 'Islamic concept' are you talking? Is this concept accepted by all Muslims, ranging from mainstream Sunni Muslims to the Shi'ites in Iran to the Sufis, Alevis, and what else there is?

Isn't it better to simply take the nationalisms at face value -- look at what they actually say, rather than assume things based on the religion they are connected to? (I can also quote the Bible to 'prove' that all Christians and Jews want homosexuals to be stoned to death. It would be ridiculous to do so, because I know almost all Christians and Jews would oppose such a law, even though it is written in the Bible/Torah.)
The last sentence of this paragraph is an important one. You're picking out a single person with fascist ideas. You could most certainly do that with every single nationalism on this planet. But how significant was this particular person? One hint, not a proof though, gives Wikipedia: The English article doesn't give more than a few biographical details and three sentences about his ideology. A German article doesn't even exist. The Hebrew article tells a little more about his background and his conection to the revisionist movement. It also depicts him as a fighter against Nazism. But honestly, I don't know much about him.
This is a good point of criticism -- there is good reason to assume that the influence of Abba Ahimeir was somewhat limited. This is, of course, not the case for Menachem Begin, or the Irgun or Lechi movements (who, at the same time, also were less extreme).
And you'll find it quite difficult to discover the fascism there. On the contrary, Sharon was surprised and sometimes annoyed of Begin's legalism and fierce advocacy of democratic procedures in his government. Begin's cabinet was actually more democratic then those of his Labour predecessors.
Also a good point. But I guess my original point, namely that there has been a fascist or close-to-fascist undercurrent in some movements that were influential to the foundation of Israel as a state, still stands.
Essentially, all of Likud's prime ministers with the exception of Sharon (before he left Likud) -- Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu -- have a connection to either the Lehi or the Irgun movements
How can Netanyahu have a connection to organisations that didn't exist anymore when he was born? Or what do you mean?
His father Benzion was connected to Irgun.
In general, you seem to identify the Likud with everything questionable about the Israeli past. But as I mentioned before, the Likud was and is a democratic organisation and its rise in the 70s actually strengthened Israel's democratic character and broke the political monopoly of Labour. And what's the connection between the Likud and the assassination of Rabin?
Not really 'identify', I understand that Likud is now a democratic party, and does not directly endorse any type of fascist thought. But I wanted to point out what you asked me to point out -- that there has been a fascist undercurrent in some movements that have been quite influential in the history of Likud. And I am still not quite convinced that all traces of this undercurrent are gone by now.
Oh my. On the one hand you have a Likud-premier who officially declares his endorsement for the two state solution. On the other hand you have an antisemitic terrorist organisation that time and again declares its intention to destroy Israel and to kill Jews everywhere in the world. And you see no difference?
On one side, Netanyahu endorses a 'two-state solution', but wants to have the power of the resulting Palestinian state limited (e.g. by not allowing it to import arms). One one side this is, given the situation, of course understandable, but on the other hand one might wonder whether this really is a proper 'two state' solution at all.

On the other side, given quotations such as "As a Palestinian today I speak of a Palestinian and Arab demand for a state on 1967 borders. It is true that in reality there will be an entity or state called Israel on the rest of Palestinian land." (Khaled Meshaal) and "Israel is there, it is part of the United Nations and we do not deny its existence. But we still have rights and land there which have been usurped and until these matters are dealt with we will withhold our recognition" (Ismail Haniyeh), it seems unfair to simply state that Hamas 'time and again declares its intention to destroy Israel and to kill Jews everywhere in the world'.

All in all, for both sides you can find some nicer quotes and doubtless also some less-than-nice quotes, but my main point really is, that neither Likud (on the Israeli side) nor Hamas (on the Palestinian side) is the best candidate for the peace process. The best chances for peace still have been during a period when both Israel and the Palestinians had a leftist leadership.


(And yes, my personal mission is that it maybe shouldn't be too bad to have an international UN mission in Israel, both to secure Israel's own security, and to establish an independent Palestinian state -- demarcated by the borders that are actually recognized by the UN as Israel's borders. As you have seen, I find some parts of Israel's history questionable, but the fact is, Israel exists, and the world would be better off if everybody just accepted that. Pragmatism often works better than complicated arguments on historical grounds...)
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#78 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:00

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:I give up. There's no sense in trying to listen to what you have to say if you are unable to put your opinion into words.

Oh well, something else. I almost forgot that is was May 14th. Congratulation to all the Israelians on the forum with the anniversary of your state!

Stop trying to be clever, this is only a BG forum and this thread wasn't about Israel per se to begin with. I've had these debates on Israel some years back. Anyone with some sense of compassion knows what Israel is. And yet you're asking me why I should possibly have anything against Israel. Is the world round? Did the British have an empire. Get real.

What Ahmadinejad said will come true. Israel will whither away, be wiped off, scattered to the winds. With no thanks to their conservative zealot Christian rapture awaiting friends in the US.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#79 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 21:17

OK, initially I decided not to reply to your posts anymore, but now I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid... Just take a look at what you said in your last post. You say it's completely normal to hate Israel, without giving any reasons, let alone good ones. So I'm beginning to think that you've had a fanatic antisemitic education. Is that normal in India? I certainly hope not.

Oh, and let me predict you one thing: Israel will never be wiped off the map, only because that fucker of an Iranian president says so. And I'm not saying that as an Israel fanatic.

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#80 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:30

Andreas wrote:OK, initially I decided not to reply to your posts anymore, but now I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid... Just take a look at what you said in your last post. You say it's completely normal to hate Israel, without giving any reasons, let alone good ones. So I'm beginning to think that you've had a fanatic antisemitic education. Is that normal in India? I certainly hope not.

Oh, and let me predict you one thing: Israel will never be wiped off the map, only because that fucker of an Iranian president says so. And I'm not saying that as an Israel fanatic.
If you're so intelligent you would know how to read and understand instead of making excited leaps of logic.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#81 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 21:35

Then show me how it's done and reply on the content of my post...

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#82 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:46

Why don't you reply to the content of my post without resorting to your imagination to lead you? My reasons for hating Israel are made clear before that post of yours. I can't help you out any better.

As for your comment about Ahmadinejad. I'll forgive you for making an ignorant, hysterical reply and jumping all over my post with that ridiculous reply. Ahmadnejad did not ask to have Israel 'wiped off' in the sense of having it destroyed. I thought only Americans had this misconception; I thought people in Europe generally knew this was a misinterpretation.
Death to gay power metal!

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#83 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:49

As for anti-semetism, you've got to be kidding. Europe was and is the hotbed of anti-semetism. India has tradtionally and always sheltered people from Israel/Judah/Canaan whatever, unless its their distinct ethnic descendants in Kashmir they're oppressing. It's hilarious to have a lecture on anti-semetism from a Euro.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#84 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 21:50

I Pity The Fool wrote:
Andreas wrote:OK, initially I decided not to reply to your posts anymore, but now I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid... Just take a look at what you said in your last post. You say it's completely normal to hate Israel, without giving any reasons, let alone good ones. So I'm beginning to think that you've had a fanatic antisemitic education. Is that normal in India? I certainly hope not.

Oh, and let me predict you one thing: Israel will never be wiped off the map, only because that fucker of an Iranian president says so. And I'm not saying that as an Israel fanatic.
If you're so intelligent you would know how to read and understand instead of making excited leaps of logic.
I refer to rule 3. Debate the argument, not the person.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#85 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:52

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:
Andreas wrote:OK, initially I decided not to reply to your posts anymore, but now I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid... Just take a look at what you said in your last post. You say it's completely normal to hate Israel, without giving any reasons, let alone good ones. So I'm beginning to think that you've had a fanatic antisemitic education. Is that normal in India? I certainly hope not.

Oh, and let me predict you one thing: Israel will never be wiped off the map, only because that fucker of an Iranian president says so. And I'm not saying that as an Israel fanatic.
If you're so intelligent you would know how to read and understand instead of making excited leaps of logic.
I refer to rule 3. Debate the argument, not the person.
With all respect, please mind your own business. You're not a mod, you have no rules. And second, I was debating the argument. Go play somewhere else if you have nothing better to do.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#86 Post by Joost » 14 May 2010 21:53

I Pity the Fool: Go play somewhere else if you have nothing better to do.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#87 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:56

Stop being a twat.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#88 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 21:58

Did anyone ever tell you that you suck at debating? Discussions are polite here, in general. And then you come to stir things up (yes, I'm pathetic enough to consider you). And then you gonna say that you were insulted first, while you're beginning to call almost everyone names. Ever considered leaving this place and thus make it nice again?

EDIT: now you've insulted an admin. Interesting...

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#89 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 21:58

With all respect, please mind your own business. You're not a mod, you have no rules.
See rule 5.
Stop being a twat.
See rule 2.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#90 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 21:59

Andreas wrote:Did anyone ever tell you that you suck at debating? Discussions are polite here, in general. And then you come to stir things up (yes, I'm pathetic enough to consider you). And then you gonna say that you were insulted first, while you're beginning to call almost everyone names. Ever considered leaving this place and thus make it nice again?
I've never begun a conversation once with you.

And yet you begin here by saying 'I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid' and continue by lying that its not you that began with insults. Lie all you want, liar.
Death to gay power metal!

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#91 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 22:00

Andreas wrote: EDIT: now you've insulted an admin. Interesting...

Yes, I have. But you're still a stupid liar.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#92 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 22:01

I Pity The Fool wrote:I've never begun a conversation once with you.
Put a quote here that says that I ever implied that.
And yet you begin here by saying 'I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid' and continue by lying that its not you that began with insults. Lie all you want, liar.
That was way after you started calling everyone names.

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#93 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 22:02

I Pity The Fool wrote:Yes, I have. But you're still a stupid liar.

See rule 2.
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#94 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 22:02

I Pity The Fool wrote:But you're still a stupid liar.
I don't understand this. Cultural differences I guess...

User avatar
Joost
Posts: 3799
Joined: 16 Aug 2002 17:54
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#95 Post by Joost » 14 May 2010 22:04

I Pity the Fool: If you continue this insulting behaviour (towards anyone here) for one single more post, this will net you a ban.
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

::.: Homepage .::. last.fm .::. Facebook .::. Flickr :.::

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#96 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 22:05

Andreas wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:I've never begun a conversation once with you.
Put a quote here that says that I ever implied that.
And yet you begin here by saying 'I'm really wondering whether you're joking or just plain stupid' and continue by lying that its not you that began with insults. Lie all you want, liar.
That was way after you started calling everyone names.
I can't have insulted you first, brainiac.

I was not 'calling everyone names' before you said that. Because like I said you can't comprehend a discussion. But you insist in joining one nevertheless. Perhaps that explains your higher than average post count.
Death to gay power metal!

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#97 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 22:05

Andreas wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:But you're still a stupid liar.
I don't understand this. Cultural differences I guess...
Not at all.
Death to gay power metal!

I Pity The Fool
Posts: 127
Joined: 15 Apr 2010 11:18

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#98 Post by I Pity The Fool » 14 May 2010 22:06

Joost wrote:I Pity the Fool: If you continue this insulting behaviour (towards anyone here) for one single more post, this will net you a ban.
Double standard.
Death to gay power metal!

User avatar
Andreas
Posts: 4533
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 18:09
Location: Potsdam, Germany

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#99 Post by Andreas » 14 May 2010 22:07

Goodbye :)

User avatar
The Rider Of Rohan
Posts: 3361
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 15:30
Location: Iron Hils 90210
Contact:

Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#100 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 14 May 2010 22:08

I Pity The Fool wrote:
I was not 'calling everyone names' before you said that. Because like I said you can't comprehend a discussion. But you insist in joining one nevertheless. Perhaps that explains your higher than average post count.
Why does someone's postcount matter in the context of debating the politics of a country?
spamel wrote:
Sleeping Dragon wrote:i just don't understand what's so wrong with being a woman...
Periods.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests