Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

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I Pity The Fool
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Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#1 Post by I Pity The Fool » 01 May 2010 19:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4


I love a good pwnage of the sensitive 'offensive' brigade. :mrgreen: Especially if they are Israel apologists.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#2 Post by End Of An Era » 01 May 2010 20:12

Finkelstein for president!

that's a very well put answer.

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#3 Post by I Pity The Fool » 01 May 2010 20:54

End Of An Era wrote:Finkelstein for president!
Hear Hear!

The girl's tears alone was worth it. Pure sentimental show as a passive-aggressive way to shut up the opposition. You can see it in how she starts to cry when she Finkelstein starts talking about how despicable it is, she knows it's true. I wish Finkelstein had punched her in the stomach for that.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#4 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 01 May 2010 21:13

I Pity The Fool wrote:
End Of An Era wrote:Finkelstein for president!
Hear Hear!

The girl's tears alone was worth it. Pure sentimental show as a passive-aggressive way to shut up the opposition. You can see it in how she starts to cry when she Finkelstein starts talking about how despicable it is, she knows it's true. I wish Finkelstein had punched her in the stomach for that.

you know? i don't really think you truly understand what he said.

that aside, stop talking about Jews... and Fuck Jews!
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#5 Post by I Pity The Fool » 01 May 2010 22:20

Ok, bubba.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#6 Post by End Of An Era » 01 May 2010 23:45

off topic, you don't like gay power metal, but how do you feel about gay heavy metal?

http://pinksteel.com/

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#7 Post by I Pity The Fool » 02 May 2010 03:57

Pink Steel are great! And unlike Sava et al they don't take themselves seriously.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#8 Post by Daijin » 05 May 2010 17:33

Strange. I didn't see any Israel apologist - whatever that might be.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#9 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 05 May 2010 18:29

Daijin wrote:Strange. I didn't see any Israel apologist - whatever that might be.

i'm sorry you didn't get to see one.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#10 Post by I Pity The Fool » 05 May 2010 18:31

She was effectively saying that Israel critcism is wrong.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#11 Post by Daijin » 05 May 2010 18:57

Well, you must have seen a different video than me since all I can hear is that she complains about him comparing Jews to Nazis. If, in your terms, people not liking it when the deeds of Israelis are compared to those of the Nazis means that it's forbidden to criticize Israel, you must have a serious problem with your standards of moral judgement or your knowledge of the history of Nazi Germany and the Middle East conflict.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#12 Post by I Pity The Fool » 06 May 2010 03:26

All you can hear? Brillian judgement, going just by what you hear? Sorry, that's censorship by playing the 'offensive' card. Finklestein is right, she's one of those modern pc parrots who can speak of 'insensitivity' without having any real feelings about the issue. Or anything else, hence the croc tears comment. She also started weeping and moaning a second time as she saw she had lost the argument. Her face goes from showing passive aggression to full blown tears.

I know quite a good deal about the middle eastern conflict and Israel's atrocities. I doubt he said all Jews, it was probably Israel and zionists. And people not liking criticism about Jews in the Israeli conflict does amount to a lack of sensitivity about Palestinians. One atrocity should not be brought up to justify or silence criticism of the other. Especially since the past victims are now the aggressors in Israel.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#13 Post by No‘am » 06 May 2010 09:24

I agree, it's obviously better to go by what you imagine, or what you want to hear, than what you actually hear.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#14 Post by Daijin » 06 May 2010 10:00

I Pity The Fool wrote: I know quite a good deal about the middle eastern conflict and Israel's atrocities.
Yeah, and it seems like this "knowledge" makes you interpret a situation you know nothing more about than me (since we both have seen only the same short video) in the biased way you described it above.
I doubt he said all Jews, it was probably Israel and zionists. And people not liking criticism about Jews in the Israeli conflict does amount to a lack of sensitivity about Palestinians.
So again: Not accepting Israelis called Nazis equals not allowing criticizing Israel in your world?
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#15 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 07 May 2010 10:46

you're all seriously missing the point here. the real issue is not the perspective with which you judge the stance of one person in regards to any given situation. it is rather the question of whether i need to dye my hair blonde before i apply red dye to it or the color won't catch, or whether i can apply the red and blonde colours together and dye the hair just once. this is crucial since every time you dye your hair it loses strength.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#16 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 07 May 2010 10:49

So again: Not accepting Israelis called Nazis equals not allowing criticizing Israel in your world?
Only when you think in absolutes. There's a whole world of options between saying the Jews are nazi's and criticizing the Israeli government, you know.
Especially since the past victims are now the aggressors in Israel.
By writing this you walk into the same trap as this Finkel-dude does. You are reducing a complex conflict which has spanned generations to a caricature of reality.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#17 Post by Daijin » 07 May 2010 10:58

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
So again: Not accepting Israelis called Nazis equals not allowing criticizing Israel in your world?
Only when you think in absolutes. There's a whole world of options between saying the Jews are nazi's and criticizing the Israeli government, you know.
That's exactly what I was pointing to with my question.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#18 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 07 May 2010 11:17

I know. :wink:
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#19 Post by Joost » 07 May 2010 21:29

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
So again: Not accepting Israelis called Nazis equals not allowing criticizing Israel in your world?
Only when you think in absolutes. There's a whole world of options between saying the Jews are nazi's and criticizing the Israeli government, you know.
Of course Finkelstein is not simply "saying the Jews are Nazis". He's a Jew himself, had his relatives killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust, of course his view can be expected to be more nuanced than this (and it is). It's funny how many people seem to have to have strong opinions about Finkelstein's opinions, based on this short video, without even knowing for certain what preceded it, except for a very shorting paraphrase of the preceding talk by an overly emotional girl.

So. What did Finkelstein say? Personally I have not been able to figure out what exactly he said in this talk, but in general his view seems to be the following: in his view, the Holocaust has been abused as a 'weapon' by Israelis, to give them a sort of excuse to do things which may in other cases be deemed unacceptable. It's his views that some Israelis, who partake in or perpetrate atrocities agsinst e.g. the Palestinians, seem to be exempt from criticism on humanitarian grounds -- they have been the victims in the past, of course they can't be the perpetrators now.

Is this the same as 'saying the Jews are Nazis'? Far from it. He's not criticizing Jews in general, but merely criticizing the actions of Israel as a state. As anyone with a bit of an intellectual background should know, there are quite a few Jews who are critical of the state Israel, and even Jews who downright oppose Israel's existence. I am quite critical of Israel as a state, but I think it's quite a pity that I'm hardly able to express this criticism without obligatorily adding that I do not have anything at all against the Jewish people or the Jewish religion.

Although I'm still not sure what exactly Finkelstein said in the talk that preceded this emotional outburst by this girl, I am in perfect agreement that Israel is not above criticisms, and furthermore, that the most painful comparisons that can be made are not necessarily always the worst ones. A disagreement with these views, is, of course, perfectly fine, but I do not think such a disagreement should be based on the antisemitism-card, which it, too often, still seems to be.

To throw a bit of oil on the fire, let me add that it's my opinion that the history that preceded and followed the founding of Israel as a state was, to a degree that is not negligible, fueled by the same types of sentiment that preceded the rise of fascism and national socialism. More specific, this concerns the nationalism and Romanticism that became popular in the 19th century, most specifically the idea that every people has an unalienable right to its own homeland, and the idea that historic arguments (which are, often, more rooted in myth than in reality) could be used to claim or re-claim this homeland. Now, I don't mean to say that Jews are fascists, or even that Israelis are fascists, but I do mean to say that certain political parties, that have played a significant role in Israel's history have a certain affinity with the same type of thought that also resulted in fascism.
Especially since the past victims are now the aggressors in Israel.
By writing this you walk into the same trap as this Finkel-dude does. You are reducing a complex conflict which has spanned generations to a caricature of reality.
It would be more interesting if you criticized this argument at the level of content, rather than the level of perceived decency.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#20 Post by Sleeping Dragon » 07 May 2010 21:58

Joost is awesome indeed, you all should really be paying attention to the man.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#21 Post by Daijin » 07 May 2010 22:15

Wow, such a long statement to defend something that haven't been attacked.
Joost wrote: Of course Finkelstein is not simply "saying the Jews are Nazis".
What makes you think you have to point that out?
He's a Jew himself, had his relatives killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust
Or that?

And what's all this about the long interpretation of what he might have said and even bringing up the fear of anyone being called antisemite?
My argument till now was as simple as that: All we can see in the video is a girl reacting emotionally to what she perceived as a comparison of some Jews or probably Israelis with Nazis. I pity the fool read from this short video for some strange reason that one's in some mysterious way forbidden to criticize Israel when people don't like it when somebody draws this stupid and absurd comparison.
He's not criticizing Jews in general, but merely criticizing the actions of Israel as a state.
And again I don't see the necessity of pointing that out.
To throw a bit of oil on the fire, let me add that it's my opinion that the history that preceded and followed the founding of Israel as a state was, to a degree that is not negligible, fueled by the same types of sentiment that preceded the rise of fascism and national socialism.
Just by claiming something isn't negligible it doesn't make it non-negligible. But of course, if you want see the phenomenon of nationalism itself as a source of Facism it's only logical to include also Jewish nationalism in this overall interpretation. But one has to wonder than why nobody links Indian, Algerian or Egyptian nationalism to fascism...
More specific, this concerns the nationalism and Romanticism that became popular in the 19th century, most specifically the idea that every people has an unalienable right to its own homeland, and the idea that historic arguments (which are, often, more rooted in myth than in reality) could be used to claim or re-claim this homeland.
That's quite easy to say when one doesn't belong to a minority that was subjected to the moods and mercy of majorities for 3000 years. But we're getting quite far from the point here.
but I do mean to say that certain political parties, that have played a significant role in Israel's history have a certain affinity with the same type of thought that also resulted in fascism.
Now, that's quite an interesting claim. Would you mind to go a little more into details?
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#22 Post by Daijin » 07 May 2010 22:18

Joost wrote:
Especially since the past victims are now the aggressors in Israel.
By writing this you walk into the same trap as this Finkel-dude does. You are reducing a complex conflict which has spanned generations to a caricature of reality.
It would be more interesting if you criticized this argument at the level of content, rather than the level of perceived decency.
I'm not the Rider of Rohan but I can say for myself that I definitely criticize this argument also on the level of content.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive girl

#23 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 07 May 2010 22:20

It would be more interesting if you criticized this argument at the level of content, rather than the level of perceived decency.
I fail to see the point. As a very wise politician once said: "this war represents a failure to listen". And even though this remark was made in the context of a different war, it's still quite valid. Neither the girl nor the bearded guy make any attempt to try to understand the other party more than before they started their little debate. So he may put a different view on the matter, but the 'matter' at heart is the art of scape-coating. So I see little point in debating his arguments, as this person doesn't add anything interesting to the Israelian-Palestinian debate in the first place.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#24 Post by Daijin » 07 May 2010 22:29

Joost wrote:I am quite critical of Israel as a state
On a sidenote: That's fine. I guess, there are quite a few Israelis that are quite critical of the Netherlands as a state. It's interesting though that so much more people feel that strange urge to show they're quite critical of Israel as a state than, say, of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Iraq.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#25 Post by I Pity The Fool » 12 May 2010 16:01

Daijin wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote: I know quite a good deal about the middle eastern conflict and Israel's atrocities.
Yeah, and it seems like this "knowledge" makes you interpret a situation you know nothing more about than me (since we both have seen only the same short video) in the biased way you described it above.
I doubt he said all Jews, it was probably Israel and zionists. And people not liking criticism about Jews in the Israeli conflict does amount to a lack of sensitivity about Palestinians.
So again: Not accepting Israelis called Nazis equals not allowing criticizing Israel in your world?
Actually, moron, I have read and know a lot about the conflict. And I know enough about how people use the holocaust to silence people. That's what Finklestein talks about too. And that's exactly what the girl tried to do in the video.

So, yes the girl was deliberately manipulating him through tears, mentioning the holocaust and saying it's wrong to call Israeli's or Jews as nazi's to silence him.

Aren't you trying awfully hard to sound smart?
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#26 Post by I Pity The Fool » 12 May 2010 16:02

Daijin wrote:
Joost wrote:I am quite critical of Israel as a state
On a sidenote: That's fine. I guess, there are quite a few Israelis that are quite critical of the Netherlands as a state. It's interesting though that so much more people feel that strange urge to show they're quite critical of Israel as a state than, say, of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Iraq.
It's important to be critical of every state. But Israel has more to criticise about than any of those countries you mentioned.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#27 Post by I Pity The Fool » 12 May 2010 16:11

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:
So again: Not accepting Israelis called Nazis equals not allowing criticizing Israel in your world?
Only when you think in absolutes. There's a whole world of options between saying the Jews are nazi's and criticizing the Israeli government, you know.
Especially since the past victims are now the aggressors in Israel.
By writing this you walk into the same trap as this Finkel-dude does. You are reducing a complex conflict which has spanned generations to a caricature of reality.

It's completely fair to say Israel's brutality has in many ways reached Nazi proportions, and they are very similar in nature.

It's natural to make that comparison in certain conditions.

Or are you the sort of person who would after a murder tell the person who said 'He's a devil!' that he's overreacting, and there's a world of options between saying devil and murderer?

'Well technically you are wrong, you see, because firstly it's debatable as to whether the devil even exists. And even then...'
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#28 Post by Desert_Storm » 12 May 2010 16:41

I don´t really want to get in the debate now since daijin made most of my points, but
I Pity The Fool wrote: Actually, moron,...
Come on, we´re friendly people here, what´s wrong with you? Criticize an opinion, if you must, but stop insulting people behind it.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#29 Post by I Pity The Fool » 12 May 2010 16:43

Desert_Storm wrote:I don´t really want to get in the debate now since daijin made most of my points, but
I Pity The Fool wrote: Actually, moron,...
Come on, we´re friendly people here, what´s wrong with you? Criticize an opinion, if you must, but stop insulting people behind it.
Please examine the post I replied to. If I am unfriendly it is always only to those who deserve it.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#30 Post by Daijin » 12 May 2010 16:54

I Pity The Fool wrote: Actually, moron, I have read and know a lot about the conflict.
Climbing the hights of decent argumentation?
So, yes the girl was deliberately manipulating him through tears, mentioning the holocaust and saying it's wrong to call Israeli's or Jews as nazi's to silence him.
You don't get it, do you? How does rejecting the comparison of Israelis with Nazis silence any criticism against Israel?
When I reject you calling me a murderer because I eat meat does that mean I'm silencing criticism of meat eating?
It's important to be critical of every state. But Israel has more to criticise about than any of those countries you mentioned.
You've got to be kidding me! You do know that Jordan butchered more palestinians in a single month than Israel killed in all its wars till then combined, don't you? I mean, since you "read and know a lot about the conflict". But I actually wonder why I'm discussing with somebody who seriously claims there's more to criticise about in Israel than in Syria. That's just ridiculous and reveals "moral" standards that simply aren't compatible with those I consider as such.

As I can also take from this:
It's completely fair to say Israel's brutality has in many ways reached Nazi proportions, and they are very similar in nature.
No, it not only not fair it's utterly unjust and absurd. Tell me about the Israeli death camps, show me the extinction of a people (that actually constitutes the fastest growing community on this planet), show me the systematic centrally controlled racist propaganda (you won't have problems to find that on the other side though), show me the deliberate use of hate speech by state officials to enrage the population etc. pp.
A curfew or checkpoints are no exclusive predicate of Nazis. So either show me some genuine signs of Israeli Nazism or stop demonstrating your miserable resentment by drawing stupid comparisons.

And no, I wouldn't discuss about murderers and devils but I definitely would argue about somebody being called a murderer who killed in self-defence.


PS:
Please examine the post I replied to. If I am unfriendly it is always only to those who deserve it.
That's actually quite funny. Just think about it a little.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#31 Post by I Pity The Fool » 12 May 2010 17:16

Daijin wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote: Actually, moron, I have read and know a lot about the conflict.
Climbing the hights of decent argumentation?
So, yes the girl was deliberately manipulating him through tears, mentioning the holocaust and saying it's wrong to call Israeli's or Jews as nazi's to silence him.
You don't get it, do you? How does rejecting the comparison of Israelis with Nazis silence any criticism against Israel?

Because she said it was offensive to her. It's no business of hers how Norman chooses to criticise Israel. She used the 'offensiveness' to silence Israel's critics. You don't get it do you?

When I reject you calling me a murderer because I eat meat does that mean I'm silencing criticism of meat eating?

It would be if you claimed it's offensive and tried to shout me down or resort to tears along with it.
It's important to be critical of every state. But Israel has more to criticise about than any of those countries you mentioned.
You've got to be kidding me! You do know that Jordan butchered more palestinians in a single month than Israel killed in all its wars till then combined, don't you? I mean, since you "read and know a lot about the conflict". But I actually wonder why I'm discussing with somebody who seriously claims there's more to criticise about in Israel than in Syria. That's just ridiculous and reveals "moral" standards that simply aren't compatible with those I consider as such.

I'm sorry but Israeli brutality is ongoing and is nothing like what they suffered elsewhere. And who are these people that 'seriously' say that Syria is anywhere as bad as Israel? Which planet do they live on? What you said about 'propaganda' from the 'other side' tells me a lot. What a load of crap. Israel uses systematic state repression, they control all aspects of life in Palestine. They are state terrorists, they are scum of the highest order. Be on your way, little zionist apologist.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#32 Post by End Of An Era » 12 May 2010 18:09

i liked you better when you were still trolling about gay metal.

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#33 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 12 May 2010 18:18

yeah.. now you are calling names without any reason
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#34 Post by Daijin » 12 May 2010 18:22

I Pity The Fool wrote: Because she said it was offensive to her. It's no business of hers how Norman chooses to criticise Israel. She used the 'offensiveness' to silence Israel's critics. You don't get it do you?
First of all, it's interesting that you know so damn much about the real emotions and intentions of a girl you never met. But anyway, even if he refrained from calling Israelis Nazis in order not to hurt her feelings. Does that mean he couldn't criticise Israel anymore?
It would be if you claimed it's offensive and tried to shout me down or resort to tears along with it.
Oh ok, it's forbidden to be emotionally affected by what your opponent says, no matter how offensive it is. Now, I get it.
I'm sorry but Israeli brutality is ongoing and is nothing like what they suffered elsewhere. And who are these people that 'seriously' say that Syria is anywhere as bad as Israel? Which planet do they live on? What you said about 'propaganda' from the 'other side' tells me a lot. What a load of crap. Israel uses systematic state repression, they control all aspects of life in Palestine. They are state terrorists, they are scum of the highest order. Be on your way, little zionist apologist.
[/quote]
I am one of those mysterious people. For example, I observe and compare: When in 1982 Lebanese christians butchered about 500 Palestinians and other muslim Arabs in the vicinity of Israeli troops the reaction was a global outcry, more than a tenth of the Israeli population met in Tel Aviv to the biggest demonstration in the history of the country, a commission was formed to investigate the massacre and although it couldn't find a direct responsibility of any Israeli and although no Israeli soldiers were involved in the killings, the acting defence minister had to resign from his post.
Now, when in 1980 the president of Syria saw his regime threatened by parts of the population of his own country and he ordered his army to attack a city of the opposition, destroying whole parts of it killing tenths of thousands of the population, the world cared as much as it cares for savages slaughtering unbelievers (or whatever their fault might be) in Sudan.

But of course, other states aren't "anywhere as bad as Israel", including states that systematically surpress their own population or those that almost enslave half of their population because they had the bad luck to be born with too many X-chromosomes (or to love people with the same combination of chromosomes). Because nobody gives a shit when Arabs or others of those strange oriental peoples are doing this to their own kin. It needs a Westerner being involved, most suitably a Jew, to activate the moral judgement of people like you.
You may call me a Zionist, I don't even see that as an insult, espcially not from somebody who appears to be a racist.


And finally about the propaganda, the best answer is to let them speak for themleves:
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.the ... arter.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdRXkT1_eoI&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53CHUjVWljU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=136281


Another famous incident: http://www.youtube.com/user/NewsFromIsl ... oIYFvuFFWs

And there's so much more...
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#35 Post by I Pity The Fool » 12 May 2010 18:51

Daijin wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote: Because she said it was offensive to her. It's no business of hers how Norman chooses to criticise Israel. She used the 'offensiveness' to silence Israel's critics. You don't get it do you?
First of all, it's interesting that you know so damn much about the real emotions and intentions of a girl you never met. But anyway, even if he refrained from calling Israelis Nazis in order not to hurt her feelings. Does that mean he couldn't criticise Israel anymore?

So you know nothing about people once you've heard them speak a little? Ok, but speak for yourself.

You're being thick. She was trying to shut him up there. And yes, people like that can silence criticism if its done often. Less brave people would shut up.

It would be if you claimed it's offensive and tried to shout me down or resort to tears along with it.
Oh ok, it's forbidden to be emotionally affected by what your opponent says, no matter how offensive it is. Now, I get it.

It's called emotional blackmail.
I'm sorry but Israeli brutality is ongoing and is nothing like what they suffered elsewhere. And who are these people that 'seriously' say that Syria is anywhere as bad as Israel? Which planet do they live on? What you said about 'propaganda' from the 'other side' tells me a lot. What a load of crap. Israel uses systematic state repression, they control all aspects of life in Palestine. They are state terrorists, they are scum of the highest order. Be on your way, little zionist apologist.

I am one of those mysterious people. For example, I observe and compare:

ooh observe and compare!

When in 1982 Lebanese christians butchered about 500 Palestinians and other muslim Arabs in the vicinity of Israeli troops the reaction was a global outcry, more than a tenth of the Israeli population met in Tel Aviv to the biggest demonstration in the history of the country, a commission was formed to investigate the massacre and although it couldn't find a direct responsibility of any Israeli and although no Israeli soldiers were involved in the killings, the acting defence minister had to resign from his post.
Now, when in 1980 the president of Syria saw his regime threatened by parts of the population of his own country and he ordered his army to attack a city of the opposition, destroying whole parts of it killing tenths of thousands of the population, the world cared as much as it cares for savages slaughtering unbelievers (or whatever their fault might be) in Sudan.

But of course, other states aren't "anywhere as bad as Israel", including states that systematically surpress their own population or those that almost enslave half of their population because they had the bad luck to be born with too many X-chromosomes. Because nobody gives a shit when muslims are doing this to other muslims. It needs a Westerner being involved, most suitably a Jew, to activate the moral judgement of people like you.

I don't hold favourable opinions of those Arab regimes. But Israel's history as a whole is worse, and they've shown themselves to be far more devious than of those people. And you ignore that you're comparing the actions of one regime with Israeli practise since its inception.

You may call me a Zionist, I don't even see that as an insult, espcially not from somebody who appears to be a racist.

ooh now I'm a racist! Seeing what your arguments are like I wouldn't surprised if you moonlight for the ADL.

And finally about the propaganda, the best answer is to let them speak for themleves:
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.the ... arter.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdRXkT1_eoI&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53CHUjVWljU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrieBhaGgHM

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=136281


Another famous incident: http://www.youtube.com/user/NewsFromIsl ... oIYFvuFFWs

And there's so much more...[/quote]
If you have something to say, say it instead of asking me to trawl through half a dozen youtube videos. You come off as totally dishonest, so it doesn't matter either way. It's not like I've talked to a rational or decent Israel defender before.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#36 Post by End Of An Era » 12 May 2010 19:37

fuck jews?

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#37 Post by Daijin » 12 May 2010 19:39

Would you care to offer an argument for once instead of claim after claim without any explanation?
I Pity The Fool wrote: You come off as totally dishonest, so it doesn't matter either way. It's not like I've talked to a rational or decent Israel defender before.
That doesn't surprise me since you seem to be caught in circular logic here.

And putting aside all the arbitrary insults towards me you might at least bother to show me my dishonesty. Because I somehow get the impression, faggot, I'm talking to, asshole, someone, brbrbrbr fucker...moron, suffering from Tourette syndrome.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#38 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 12 May 2010 20:00

Despite the fact that I am not a mod, I feel inclined to intervene. This topic is excellent ground-material for an interesting debate, but in order to keep it interesting for everyone, I propose a handful of guidelines:

1 - Lets not pretend that we'll ever get to the point where we all agree in this thread
2 - Let's not call eachother names
3 - Let's try to listen to each other's arguments and debate the argument, not the person
4 - Let's not drag the comparison to nazi's into the equation. I just finished Call Of Duty 2 on hard, and the nazi's weren't nice people at all.
5 - When you think this post is bullshit: see rule 1.
Last edited by The Rider Of Rohan on 12 May 2010 20:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#39 Post by Andreas » 12 May 2010 20:03

The Rider Of Rohan wrote: 4 - Let's not drag the comparison to nazi's into the equation. I just finished Call Of Duty 2 on hard, and the nazi's weren't nice people at all.
This one made me LOL

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#40 Post by End Of An Era » 12 May 2010 20:40

Andreas wrote:
The Rider Of Rohan wrote: 4 - Let's not drag the comparison to nazi's into the equation. I just finished Call Of Duty 2 on hard, and the nazi's weren't nice people at all.
This one made me LOL
lol? you're a sick man, you know that. Have you not ever heard about castle Wolvenstein? i don't see anything funny in that!

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#41 Post by I Pity The Fool » 13 May 2010 12:58

Daijin wrote:Would you care to offer an argument for once instead of claim after claim without any explanation?
I Pity The Fool wrote: You come off as totally dishonest, so it doesn't matter either way. It's not like I've talked to a rational or decent Israel defender before.
That doesn't surprise me since you seem to be caught in circular logic here.

And putting aside all the arbitrary insults towards me you might at least bother to show me my dishonesty. Because I somehow get the impression, faggot, I'm talking to, asshole, someone, brbrbrbr fucker...moron, suffering from Tourette syndrome.

How about you go first? You lost any and ALL credibility when you said Arab state crimes were worse than Israel's. I can't take you seriously, Mr. Dershowitz.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#42 Post by Joost » 13 May 2010 13:16

I Pity The Fool wrote:Actually, moron, I have read and know a lot about the conflict.
Could you please stop calling other people names in this discussion.?

Other than this: Daijin yes, I realize I have a complicated statement to defend in this discussion. I will get back on this, though.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#43 Post by I Pity The Fool » 13 May 2010 13:18

The Rider Of Rohan wrote:Despite the fact that I am not a mod, I feel inclined to intervene. This topic is excellent ground-material for an interesting debate, but in order to keep it interesting for everyone, I propose a handful of guidelines:

1 - Lets not pretend that we'll ever get to the point where we all agree in this thread
2 - Let's not call eachother names
3 - Let's try to listen to each other's arguments and debate the argument, not the person
4 - Let's not drag the comparison to nazi's into the equation. I just finished Call Of Duty 2 on hard, and the nazi's weren't nice people at all.
5 - When you think this post is bullshit: see rule 1.

3. There is little point in trying to rationalize something with an open Israeli apologist.
4. Neither are the zionists.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#44 Post by I Pity The Fool » 13 May 2010 13:20

Joost wrote:
I Pity The Fool wrote:Actually, moron, I have read and know a lot about the conflict.
Could you please stop calling other people names in this discussion.?

Other than this: Daijin yes, I realize I have a complicated statement to defend in this discussion. I will get back on this, though.
Daijin, I mean, Mr. Dershowitz made a rude comment about my level of knowledge which is what caused me to reply in that manner. If someone is going to act like a dickhead for no reason, they can't complain when I respond in kind, but more effectively.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#45 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 13 May 2010 13:54

Daijin, I mean, Mr. Dershowitz made a rude comment about my level of knowledge which is what caused me to reply in that manner. If someone is going to act like a dickhead for no reason, they can't complain when I respond in kind, but more effectively.
I hereby would like to remind you of rules 2 and 3.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#46 Post by Joost » 13 May 2010 14:19

Daijin wrote:Wow, such a long statement to defend something that haven't been attacked.
Joost wrote: Of course Finkelstein is not simply "saying the Jews are Nazis".
What makes you think you have to point that out?
From your [Thu May 06, 2010 9:00] post, I got the impression that a point of discussion here, was the distinction between 'not accepting Israelis called Nazis' and 'not allowing criticizing Israel'. I had the impression that you were trying to point out that the girl was not doing the latter, but rather the former. I agree on that, but I also think that this is (in all likelihood, but difficult to determine as I still have not heard the preceding speech by Finkelstein) probably a misrepresentation of what Finkelstein actually said. Hence I wanted to point out that Finkelstein is not simply "saying the Jews are Nazis".
He's a Jew himself, had his relatives killed by the Nazis in the Holocaust
Or that?
This, too, was mostly intended to serve as background understanding, as a light to read the remaining discussion in.
And what's all this about the long interpretation of what he might have said and even bringing up the fear of anyone being called antisemite?
My argument till now was as simple as that: All we can see in the video is a girl reacting emotionally to what she perceived as a comparison of some Jews or probably Israelis with Nazis. I pity the fool read from this short video for some strange reason that one's in some mysterious way forbidden to criticize Israel when people don't like it when somebody draws this stupid and absurd comparison.
I agree that I Pity the Fool has a rather 'weird' interpretation of this video, yes. But I also think that there's a good chance that the overly emotional reaction by the girl probably was not warranted by what Finkelstein said.

I'm, however, still baffled, at how people (on both sides) have such strong opinions on this, without really knowing what Finkelstein said.
He's not criticizing Jews in general, but merely criticizing the actions of Israel as a state.
And again I don't see the necessity of pointing that out.
Reading this quote, by myself, standing alone, I have to admit I was rather surprisde that I actually said this. The context, however (which was not quoted by you; it would, in my opinion, be fairer if you quoted entire paragraphs and addressed them based on the content and context, rather than singling out sentences and marking them, as unnecessary). The girl seems to believe Finkelstein is equating the Jews with Nazis, but misses the nuance that Finkelstein is actually criticizing Israel as a state, rather than 'the Jews'. Because of this reason, I think there was a good reason to point this nuance out.


I hope that, within this context, my previous post makes more sense in the way that it actually addressed some of the issues raised in this discussion, and in the video. But I also hope that this won't be a reason for you to delve deeper and deeper into the unpleasant quagmire of meta-discussion.

Now for the juicy part of the discussion...
To throw a bit of oil on the fire, let me add that it's my opinion that the history that preceded and followed the founding of Israel as a state was, to a degree that is not negligible, fueled by the same types of sentiment that preceded the rise of fascism and national socialism.
Just by claiming something isn't negligible it doesn't make it non-negligible. But of course, if you want see the phenomenon of nationalism itself as a source of Facism it's only logical to include also Jewish nationalism in this overall interpretation. But one has to wonder than why nobody links Indian, Algerian or Egyptian nationalism to fascism...
This is a legitimate issue to wonder, and I think the answers, indeed, can be found in the history of nationalism and nationalist movements. It is true that, on the one side, nationalism and Romanticism as a whole are currents that preceded fascism, but that, on the other side, most nationalist movements shouldn't be, and aren't, called fascist. Perhaps the best indicator here, are some quotes from Mussollini's essay La dottrina del fascismo (The Doctrine of Fascism):

The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people.

In this sense, Fascism can on one side be considered a strongly Romantic movement, but on the other side, going much beyond that which was traditionally called Nationalism. Many historical and also current Nationalist movements (including movements like the IRA and ETA, but, of course, also Labour Zionism) were born from an ideal of every people having the right to self-rule and self-determination, and are essentially leftist movements. Fascism adds to this a mystical component, exemplified by the all-embracingness of the State. Another, related, concept to this, is that of the Blut und Boden ideology, in which a mystical connection is postulated to a people, and the land that is connected to this people.

Now, of course, also the non-Fascist blend of Nationalism has, historically, led to many atrocities and large amounts of bloodshed. Although I am no expert on Indian, Algerian, or Egyptian nationalism, I definitely won't be the one to claim they are 'above this' in any sense. But I also don't have the impression that these nationalisms are strongly driven by any of these 'fascist specifics' of some types of nationalism. At the same time, it's indeed likely that no movements in Israel's history are truly fascist in the strictest sense of the word. But some of the 'typically fascist' traits -- a mystical component, and an ideology which is at least quite comparable to Blut und Boden, do seem present in at least some subcurrents of the Zionist movement.
More specific, this concerns the nationalism and Romanticism that became popular in the 19th century, most specifically the idea that every people has an unalienable right to its own homeland, and the idea that historic arguments (which are, often, more rooted in myth than in reality) could be used to claim or re-claim this homeland.
That's quite easy to say when one doesn't belong to a minority that was subjected to the moods and mercy of majorities for 3000 years. But we're getting quite far from the point here.
Doesn't being homosexual count as being in a minority fulfilling those conditions? And yes, we're getting far from the point, but to be honest I don't really see what the relevance of me belonging, or not belonging, to a certain minority is. Can you explain to me why your remark was not an argumentum ad hominem?
but I do mean to say that certain political parties, that have played a significant role in Israel's history have a certain affinity with the same type of thought that also resulted in fascism.
Now, that's quite an interesting claim. Would you mind to go a little more into details?
The answer here is, of course, connected to the Likud party, and the movements that preceded it. The most 'interesting' figure, in this regard, is perhaps Abba Ahimeir, who was not only sympathetical to Mussolini's fascism, but also incorporated core fascist ideas (as laid out in Mussollini's essay) into his own ideology. Most significantly, he incorporated ideas about current culture being degenerated by liberalism and individualism -- the type of ideas that is much likelier to feed fascism, than it is to feed any other type of nationalist thought. Of course, Abba Ahimeir, and his naitonal-messianic current were not the main current even within the nationalist Revisionist Zionism movement. But it was there -- and it has been of significance influence on the Likud party and some of its important figures, such as Benjamin Netanyahu.

Other than this, there's of course also the Irgun movement, who, under Menachem Begin was responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946, until now still the single most deadly terrorist attack in the history of the Israeli-Palestine conflict. His movement, Irgun, was classified as a terrorist organization right after the founding of Israel as a state in 1948 -- by the Israeli government itself. 31 years later, Menachem Begin became the first prime minister for Likud in Israel's history and, ironically, went on to win the Nobel Peace Prize a few years later. To add to the list of ironic occurrences, Avraham Stern (of Lehi) offered Nazi Germany to actively fight on Germany's side in the war (as he considered, at that point, the British occupants of Palestine the true enemy), as late as 1941 (!!!), in return for Germany helping to get their Jews safely transported to Israel... (Avraham Stern was the leader of the Lehi movement, of which Yithzak Shamir, another later Israeli prime minister -- who himself was imprisoned by the British in the same year, 1941, also was a member...)

Essentially, all of Likud's prime ministers with the exception of Sharon (before he left Likud) -- Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu -- have a connection to either the Lehi or the Irgun movements; movements which were not just hostile towards Arabs, but also (unlike the people involved in Labor zionism) felt it justified to carry out terrorist attacks against the British Mandate, and who had more than a single flirt with fascist thought. Furthermore: whereas the King David Hotel bombing was the deadliest terrorist attack in Israel's history, the murder of Yithzak Rabin was perhaps the single event that had the most profoundly negative impact on the peace process that was initiated by the Oslo agreements.

As you can see, I have little to nothing positive to say about the Likud party -- either about its history, or about its current manifestation; and as far as I am concerned, their rhetorics and their actions are really nothing better than those of e.g. Hamas.
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Joost wrote:I am quite critical of Israel as a state
On a sidenote: That's fine. I guess, there are quite a few Israelis that are quite critical of the Netherlands as a state.
To be honest, I can't say I have met them. If any Israeli is strongly critical of the Netherlands as a state, I'm more than willing to join up, have a drink him/her, and discuss this issue -- I'm more than curious about the underlying arguments.
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But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#47 Post by Joost » 13 May 2010 14:21

I Pity the Fool: You hereby have an official warning. You're free to discuss here, but please do so in a civil manner. If not, further action will be taken.

Everyone: get on topic, finish your quarrels in private, and behave decently when discussing here. Further posts that don't contribute to the topic content-wise, but are only concerned with who-insults-whom will be deleted from this topic. (Just like the bunch of posts I deleted right now.)
You charge each other for the time and breath it takes to say 'good morning',
But the truth is slowly dawning -- things are getting out of hand,
We all pursue our shattered dreams along the roads to our own ruin --
Watch our empires sink and wash away like castles made of sand.
And so cast off the lies that are your lives and find the truth within.
-- Martin Walkyier

Also, Balrogs have wings.

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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#48 Post by Daijin » 13 May 2010 20:22

I Pity The Fool wrote: You lost any and ALL credibility when you said Arab state crimes were worse than Israel's. I can't take you seriously, Mr. Dershowitz.
I just felt the urge to quote that. The uninvolved reader might guess why. ;)

Other than that I'll stop this "discussion" now, since as an "open Israel apologist", which sounds like murderer, Nazi or demon but obviously something one's supposed to hide and not to show in public (usually, we Israel apologist meet only under cover of darkness on old abandoned graveyards but I've got just way too much chuzpe), I could say what I may to somebody as close minded as the Fool.

So, instead of wasting my time with fighting senseless insults I'll restrict myself to a real discussion with arguments and such - with you, Joost. I'm positive that I'll find some time for that tomorrow since Shabat will start in the afternoon so that I cannot work anyway.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#49 Post by No‘am » 13 May 2010 21:54

Daijin wrote:I'm positive that I'll find some time for that tomorrow since Shabat will start in the afternoon so that I cannot work anyway.
It's forbidden to write on Shabbat too.
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Re: Pwnage of the decade - Finkelstein tells off sensitive g

#50 Post by I Pity The Fool » 13 May 2010 21:59

Atleast now I understand why Daigin took the stance he did. The bias is clear. First I thought he might be one of those Germans with massive guilt over the past.
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