God is imaginary

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t.a.j.
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Re: God is imaginary

#151 Post by t.a.j. » 25 Sep 2010 18:24

Daggor wrote:Just a thought on the Big Bang theory. One of the most basic, absolute, inarguable facts of science is that chaos cannot emerge from absolute order, and order will never emerge from absolute chaos, yet the Big Bang theory relies entirely on both of these, scientifically impossible phenomena to happen.

Just sayin'
One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit.

All right. Let's bust a bit.
1. There are no inarguable facts of science. The closest thing to that: Science relies on a number of metaphysical assumptions, including but not limited to the falsity of solipsism & strong scepticism and the persistence of an external reality independent of any particular observer, the similarity of the sensory apparatus of different humans.
Those assumptions are "inarguable" in the sense that doubting them questions the whole enterprise of natural science.
2.What is "chaos" supposed to mean? Entropy? If so, if it is true, that entropy always increases, than any low entropy or ordered state tends towards a higher entropy of less ordered, more chaotic state.
3. I am not sure how to apply the concept of entropy, which basically is about how stuff is distributed, to s singularity, which by definition lacks a dimension within which anything could be distributed. A singularity is seems to not be the kind of thing that can have entropy. But I am no physicist, so I wouldn't put too much weight on my ideas on this.
4.A primer on the big bang theory:
4.1. The universe contains a certain amount off mass-energy (think of it as stuff).
4.2. Physics knows a conversation law for stuff: you never get less or more stuff, the stuff that you have just gets redistributed and reorganized.
4.3. Physics also has something to say on what happens to stuff, when it gets more or less dense.
4.4. The Big Bang Theory is a great sitcom.
4.5. It also says that the universe expanded from a much smaller size to a much bigger size.
4.6. "Universe" here means something like the whole of space-time. (At least, all the parts of it spatio-temporally connected to this part here that we inhabit.)
4.7 Once, there was just as much stuff as there is now, but much, much, Much less space, for it to be in.
4.8. Physics can tell us, with a certain degree of exactitude, what happens to stuff as it gets ever and ever denser.
4.9. Turns out, when you start with just the basic kinds of stuff in a very small and dense space and then pick the right rate at which to make space bigger and the stuff less dense, you actually get all the nice kinds of stuff that we have around us (and are made out of) these days.
4.10 There you go: The Big Bang Theory is a theory of how all the stuff got the way it is now.
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They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
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Baby_Kürsch
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Re: God is imaginary

#152 Post by Baby_Kürsch » 26 Sep 2010 07:25

t.a.j. wrote:
Daggor wrote:Just a thought on the Big Bang theory. One of the most basic, absolute, inarguable facts of science is that chaos cannot emerge from absolute order, and order will never emerge from absolute chaos, yet the Big Bang theory relies entirely on both of these, scientifically impossible phenomena to happen.

Just sayin'
One of the most salient features of our culture is that there is so much bullshit.

All right. Let's bust a bit.
1. There are no inarguable facts of science. The closest thing to that: Science relies on a number of metaphysical assumptions, including but not limited to the falsity of solipsism & strong scepticism and the persistence of an external reality independent of any particular observer, the similarity of the sensory apparatus of different humans.
Those assumptions are "inarguable" in the sense that doubting them questions the whole enterprise of natural science.
2.What is "chaos" supposed to mean? Entropy? If so, if it is true, that entropy always increases, than any low entropy or ordered state tends towards a higher entropy of less ordered, more chaotic state.
3. I am not sure how to apply the concept of entropy, which basically is about how stuff is distributed, to s singularity, which by definition lacks a dimension within which anything could be distributed. A singularity is seems to not be the kind of thing that can have entropy. But I am no physicist, so I wouldn't put too much weight on my ideas on this.
4.A primer on the big bang theory:
4.1. The universe contains a certain amount off mass-energy (think of it as stuff).
4.2. Physics knows a conversation law for stuff: you never get less or more stuff, the stuff that you have just gets redistributed and reorganized.
4.3. Physics also has something to say on what happens to stuff, when it gets more or less dense.
4.4. The Big Bang Theory is a great sitcom.
4.5. It also says that the universe expanded from a much smaller size to a much bigger size.
4.6. "Universe" here means something like the whole of space-time. (At least, all the parts of it spatio-temporally connected to this part here that we inhabit.)
4.7 Once, there was just as much stuff as there is now, but much, much, Much less space, for it to be in.
4.8. Physics can tell us, with a certain degree of exactitude, what happens to stuff as it gets ever and ever denser.
4.9. Turns out, when you start with just the basic kinds of stuff in a very small and dense space and then pick the right rate at which to make space bigger and the stuff less dense, you actually get all the nice kinds of stuff that we have around us (and are made out of) these days.
4.10 There you go: The Big Bang Theory is a theory of how all the stuff got the way it is now.
+1 :lol:
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ThePKH
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Re: God is imaginary

#153 Post by ThePKH » 26 Sep 2010 13:13

t.a.j. wrote:4.4. The Big Bang Theory is a great sitcom.
Any source for this? ;)
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Desert_Storm
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Re: God is imaginary

#154 Post by Desert_Storm » 26 Sep 2010 18:33

Daggor wrote:Just a thought on the Big Bang theory. One of the most basic, absolute, inarguable facts of science is that chaos cannot emerge from absolute order, and order will never emerge from absolute chaos, yet the Big Bang theory relies entirely on both of these, scientifically impossible phenomena to happen.

Just sayin'
I don't know what exactly you mean when talking of the big bang theory and what conclusion you want to make with this post. Anyway, what do you mean with "One of the most basic, absolute, inarguable facts of science is that chaos cannot emerge from absolute order"? Exchanging the term "chaos" with entropy (because I think that's what you mean), how can it not emerge from absolute order? Derived from the second law of thermodynamics, the entropy always increases in any given (isolated) system, even in one that is in perfect order at any given time that you call "start" or "t0" or whatever.
The big bang theory is perfectly compatible with that theorem, since you start out with very dense matter (that therefor possesses a very high energy), that then spreads to become less dense, less hot et cetera, as t.a.j. summarized in his post.
The "order will never emerge from absolute chaos" part is indeed one of the fundamental laws (you can call it assumptions too, since we see very well that they apply now, but we cannot prove that they always were like that and always will be), but that's not what the big bang theory says. It's rather the setting of (macro)evolution that makes you think about that: You start out with a big pile of stuff (the earth), and suddenly things start to live and evolve to become intelligent, big, strong, whatever, without anything causing that.

To come back to the topic (God is imaginary[?]), the big bang theory, in contrary to other theories, actually says nothing in favor or against a supernatural being. As Steven Hawking pointed out, theists of any religion can include it very well in their philosophy. "Bangs", however big, normally make a human ask what banged, and why, and who or what caused it. That's some nice place where a theist can but his god(s), and you could even put Aristotle's "unmoved mover" (probably wrong translation of the german "Unbewegter Beweger", but I'm sure t.a.j. can give us the correct one) in that place.
Before the big bang theory, space and time were widely considered infinite and afaik the trend goes in this direction again nowadays, away from the big bang theory. Should that theories turn out true (scientifically speaking: very probable), that would be kind of bad news for people in favour of guys from Aristotle to Zeus. Where would you put a god, if space is infinite and nothing behind it? How should he have created something that was always there?
Contrary to popular beliefs, the catholic church was quite quick in realising that, were glad that they finally had a scientific theorem with a place where they could fit in god, and declared the big bang theory true and according to the church almost right away. Of course, you can easily say that faith went to science for back ups were they could get them and ignored the other parts that might question the existence of a supernatural being. But (and I think that's something we can all agree on) that was certainly by far more intelligent than some contemporary fundamentalist who came up with the pseudo wannabe-science of creationism.
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t.a.j.
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Re: God is imaginary

#155 Post by t.a.j. » 26 Sep 2010 19:18

"unmoved mover" is fine.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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The Gods of Mars

#156 Post by Hansi Smurf » 25 Oct 2010 22:16

The Voice of the Black Man, Xodar, circa 1914

"The whole fabric of our religon is based upon superstitious belief in lies that have been foisted upon us for ages by those directly above us, to whose personal profit and aggrandizement it was to have us continue to believe as they wished us to believe."

And when "Warlord of Mars" finally returns to the Library, and I am then able to post, John Carter's, anti-religious fanatic rhetoric, all of you will smirk with very great pleasure!

Toki Wartooth? F**k, "for to"! "To" is just fine!

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No‘am
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Re: God is imaginary

#157 Post by No‘am » 12 Apr 2011 11:51

Image
Male me marem putatis? Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo

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Hansi Smurf
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Re: God is imaginary

#158 Post by Hansi Smurf » 17 Apr 2011 23:44

:shock:

Just what will you faggots do, once I place me and my home under surveillance, and there prove that I can experience both invisible emotional attacks AND legitimate prescience, all day, every day?

Not to much imaginary about mass-graves for all of you faggotted and very dishonest political bodies aboard this very rational, atheist, and well-organized Spaceship Earth of mine, huh Pigs?

Soon, very soon...

:roll:

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