This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

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Nahar
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This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#1 Post by Nahar » 08 Feb 2015 13:18

Blind Guardian don't always make completely original melodies (if something will sound perfect, they won't dump it just because it sounds like some line from another song). Some short parts in BtRM remind me of other songs, some of them I can't put my finger on.
So I thought of opening this thread, trying to gather all these little parts and find their (sometimes very distant) twins.

I will start with Grand Parade, quoting two other BG songs at the same time (intentionally, I suppose): And the Story Ends (4:10) at around 7:21. I think it also quotes Wheel of Time (its more or less main theme, that appears in many places, for example 2:57).

In Ashes of Eternity at 1:09-1:14 ("But how can you try to redeem") - I'm sure it sounds like some other (not BG) song which continues the melodic line differently. And at 2:10 there's another little bit like that that sounds strangely familiar. Do you hear that too? what song does it sound like??

Other familiar part?
(I'm talking about music, not lyrics, where there are quite a lot of quotes)


P.S.
I also imagined a slight similarity between Twilight of the Gods "A Way, Let me show a new Way" and Britny Spears' "Show me how you want it to be..."
:P
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

OmegaSlayer
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#2 Post by OmegaSlayer » 08 Feb 2015 15:21

Nahar wrote: I will start with Grand Parade, quoting two other BG songs at the same time (intentionally, I suppose): And the Story Ends (4:10) at around 7:21. I think it also quotes Wheel of Time (its more or less main theme, that appears in many places, for example 2:57).

In Ashes of Eternity at 1:09-1:14 ("But how can you try to redeem") - I'm sure it sounds like some other (not BG) song which continues the melodic line differently. And at 2:10 there's another little bit like that that sounds strangely familiar. Do you hear that too? what song does it sound like??
Gran Parade is correct, even though I was attacked when I pointed it out. LOL

The part in Ashes reminds Theatre Of Pain.

blindgfan
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#3 Post by blindgfan » 08 Feb 2015 16:30

Some parts of Ninth Wave are similar to the intro of IFTOS.

ErHaO
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#4 Post by ErHaO » 08 Feb 2015 21:02

Well, if more people on powermetal reddit actually care about the musical content of BG's work we would probably have some sort of answer. With that said, Hansi did hint towards the lyrics having intentional ties with older songs from different albums (Straight Trough the Mirror and Wait for an Answer feature the crow and not just as a random animal).

I believe they took a somewhat similar approach in music. By this I mean intentional, but I do not believe they chose these musical parts on basis of the theme's of the songs lyrics, like some prog artists do often on concepts. Offcourse you will have similar riffs here and there after almost 30 years of music and 10 rich and varied full length's. But the funny thing this time around is, while BtrM as a whole feels more innovating and fresh than ATEOT, it does have a lot more of those "hey! isn't this song x?" moments.

I do not view it as a coincidence that they remixed almost their entire career together with Charlie and we see some returning stuff (in fact, this is also what made Hansi revisit the story about the boy again).

Nahar
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#5 Post by Nahar » 08 Feb 2015 22:00

ErHaO wrote:Well, if more people on powermetal reddit actually care about the musical content of BG's work we would probably have some sort of answer. With that said, Hansi did hint towards the lyrics having intentional ties with older songs from different albums (Straight Trough the Mirror and Wait for an Answer feature the crow and not just as a random animal).

I believe they took a somewhat similar approach in music. By this I mean intentional, but I do not believe they chose these musical parts on basis of the theme's of the songs lyrics, like some prog artists do often on concepts. Offcourse you will have similar riffs here and there after almost 30 years of music and 10 rich and varied full length's. But the funny thing this time around is, while BtrM as a whole feels more innovating and fresh than ATEOT, it does have a lot more of those "hey! isn't this song x?" moments.

I do not view it as a coincidence that they remixed almost their entire career together with Charlie and we see some returning stuff (in fact, this is also what made Hansi revisit the story about the boy again).
Yeah, it's sad that serious interesting questions went unanswered... I came there too late to help with that (and ask my own questions) :(

I think that BG managed to keep their stuff more original than most big bands without too many inner-quotes (opening of The Last Candle, is a clear exception) which some bands really love and some just can't avoid or something. And I think they're doing it (the quoting thing) really well now. Using the themes in an original way, not counting on previous success and not hurting the quality of the song as a standalone...

The assumption that the remixing contributed here sounds right to me. BG in general do what's natural for them, and if they got all that stuff in their system it should affect the new album.

ErHao, didn't you also mention Control the Divine riff being used in Prophecies?

I'm also talking about quoting (by accident, perhaps) other songs (not BG)...
(last time, for example, I also tried to point out the similarity of this part of a Jethro Tull song and "Sorrows everlasting" in Curse My Name)

I still think that both those parts in Ashes of Eternity sound a lot like non-BG songs...
(OmegaSlayer: which part of Theatre of Pain does it remind you of?)
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

OmegaSlayer
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#6 Post by OmegaSlayer » 08 Feb 2015 22:55

First of all, BG (well, Hansi in particular) are master of arranging songs.
One of the peculiar things of BG from almost the beginning is taking the structure of a guitar riff in a song, raise it or lower it in pitch and totally change the vocal pattern.
In this way, with one guitar riff (which works well indipendently on the pitch) you have 2 very distinctive sections.

I'll show you in Mordred's Song since it's the first song that comes in my mind and I think it's more recognizable.
Plain guitar riff you can listen it "pure" on 0:40, let's call it "Guitar Theme A"
Guitar Theme A kicks back again around 2:09, this time with vocals "Nothing else but laughter is around me..."
At 2:19 they take Guitar Theme A, they raise it in pitch of a whole step (from Db to Eb if I remember correctly), add a few notes embellishment, BUT the structure is the same, and change the vocals line and pace.

But this also goes for a loads of other songs, from the top of my mind it's in Journey Through The Dark, Somewhere Far Beyond, Imaginations From The Other Sides, but in those latter cases the sections of the songs are not close so you really don't notice it that much unless you study the guitar part.
At times they don't even change the pitch of what the guitar plays but just the vocal line and sometimes the drums patterns.

As I mentioned another time, André is really fond of using the Phrygian mode to write leads underlining the fast sections.
Those are "tricks" that used and used over and over give a band its peculiar "sound" but that sometimes puts you in a pit where people recognizes this and that.

Ashes Of Eternity at 1:47, the whole mood is totally Theatre Of Pain, from the choice of notes to the whole SOUND of the keyboard.
I haven't really checked if there's a quoting, as it isn't obvious but very subtle, but if you check Theatre Of Pain you get what I mean.

Nahar
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#7 Post by Nahar » 09 Feb 2015 00:30

Nahar wrote: In Ashes of Eternity at 1:09-1:14 ("But how can you try to redeem") - I'm sure it sounds like some other (not BG) song which continues the melodic line differently...
The Beatles - While My Guitar Gently Weeps
!
"As darkness came it brought along silence.
Yet silence also bears madness.
Silence surrounds me - a deathly silence"...

Gorthaur
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Joined: 16 Nov 2009 16:23

Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#8 Post by Gorthaur » 09 Feb 2015 20:16

Distant Memories generally reminds me of Theater of Pain, don't know why, might be that mid-tempo straight guitars thing... :D

Also, in Doom ''look into my eyes and see'' bit, awfully reminds (or is it on purpose?) of Winter of Souls

Trevor
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#9 Post by Trevor » 11 Feb 2015 23:17

Doom has a distinct Demons and Wizards feel to me, possibly because Marcus' songwriting is certainly closer to Schaffer's than Andre's is. Specifically, the transition to the electric part reminds me of My Last Sunrise, and Hansi also uses the line, "Look into my eyes and see", just as he did in Winter of Souls.

blindgfan
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#10 Post by blindgfan » 12 Feb 2015 05:02

Trevor wrote:Doom has a distinct Demons and Wizards feel to me, possibly because Marcus' songwriting is certainly closer to Schaffer's than Andre's is. Specifically, the transition to the electric part reminds me of My Last Sunrise, and Hansi also uses the line, "Look into my eyes and see", just as he did in Winter of Souls.
Name one BG song that doesn't have symphonic elements and doesn't sounds like D&W. )

Led Guardian
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#11 Post by Led Guardian » 12 Feb 2015 06:26

4.13-4.24 of The Holy Grail reminds me of A Voice in the Dark, although the riffs aren't actually the same. Maybe a mix of that and the outro riff of Tanelorn (Into the Void).
'Nowhere has this renunciation of man's transience been more joyous or uplifting than in the medium of airport carpets.'

Trevor
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#12 Post by Trevor » 12 Feb 2015 07:57

blindgfan wrote:
Trevor wrote:Doom has a distinct Demons and Wizards feel to me, possibly because Marcus' songwriting is certainly closer to Schaffer's than Andre's is. Specifically, the transition to the electric part reminds me of My Last Sunrise, and Hansi also uses the line, "Look into my eyes and see", just as he did in Winter of Souls.
Name one BG song that doesn't have symphonic elements and doesn't sounds like D&W. )

I disagree with your premise. Andre Olbrich writes a very different kind of metal from John Schaffer's, regardless of whether there is orchestration.

Led Guardian
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#13 Post by Led Guardian » 12 Feb 2015 18:12

Trevor wrote:
blindgfan wrote:
Trevor wrote:Doom has a distinct Demons and Wizards feel to me, possibly because Marcus' songwriting is certainly closer to Schaffer's than Andre's is. Specifically, the transition to the electric part reminds me of My Last Sunrise, and Hansi also uses the line, "Look into my eyes and see", just as he did in Winter of Souls.
Name one BG song that doesn't have symphonic elements and doesn't sounds like D&W. )

I disagree with your premise. Andre Olbrich writes a very different kind of metal from John Schaffer's, regardless of whether there is orchestration.
Agreed. Rhythm alone is way different.
'Nowhere has this renunciation of man's transience been more joyous or uplifting than in the medium of airport carpets.'

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Hedge Wizard
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#14 Post by Hedge Wizard » 04 Mar 2015 05:44

OmegaSlayer wrote:First of all, BG (well, Hansi in particular) are master of arranging songs.
One of the peculiar things of BG from almost the beginning is taking the structure of a guitar riff in a song, raise it or lower it in pitch and totally change the vocal pattern.
In this way, with one guitar riff (which works well indipendently on the pitch) you have 2 very distinctive sections.
I never noticed this before but you're right. I'll have to listen for more instances like the one you showed in Mordred's Song... I'm fascinated by how BG write and arrange their songs in general but my limited knowledge of music theory makes it hard for me to wrap my head around.

OmegaSlayer
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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#15 Post by OmegaSlayer » 04 Mar 2015 09:42

Honestly...I think that listening music without much musical knowledge is often a blessing, since you enjoy it without questioning why x band choose a note instead of another and so on.

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Re: This BtRM part sounds like that other song...

#16 Post by Dragonfly » 05 Mar 2015 15:25

On my initial listens the intro to 'The Throne' strongly reminded me of the intro to Avantasia's 'Spectres', which wasn't quite a good sign. Now I've kinda got over that and, needless to say, 'The Throne' is a WAY better song.
Nobody will ever let you know
When you ask the reasons why,
They just tell you that you're on your own,
Fill your head all full of lies

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