Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

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magic_child
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Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#1 Post by magic_child » 01 Feb 2015 12:53

Hi,

I remember I was a member of this forum some years ago, but I had to register again today. Anyway, I thought this might be the right place to discuss the concept of the new album in depth, rather then one of the general metal forums out there. That's why I'm back, I hope I'll find some fellow nerds/bards who like to really discuss the details of the story :wink:

WARNING: If you want to let the story still sink in for yourself, do your own interpretations uninfluenced, etc., you should probably stop reading now.

Just like the music, the concept is very rich and complex, and just like the music, when I read all the liner notes, story and lyrics the first time, I couldn't make much out of it, but it gets better every time I reread it. By the way, similarly, the music first seemed a bit disappointing and overwhelming, but with the third, really concentrated listening I already thought "This is really a masterpiece". And it gets better every time.

I am far from having understood the story, and I have to reread a lot, I just want to collect single ideas with you, in order to slowly get it together while reading/listening.

I am drawing from various interviews and the Earbook, which has mainly three extensive liner notes: one from the Chosen One, one from a kind of "Chronicler" (Hansi?) and one from the Crow. Additionally, there are some more "mystic" liner notes about the different ages. I don't know what's in the other versions of the album.

Here is what I got at the moment (please correct me and add your thoughts!):

THE SETTING AT THE START OF THE ALBUM:

- There are two worlds, the "Here and now" and the "Promised land"

- The "Here and now" is NOT our world, but it was very similar to our world at the time of "Imaginations...". Basically just the same, a modern, technical world like ours, except for a boy, who had a little magic (from "Bright Eyes" and "And the story ends").

- The "Promised Land" was called Camlann, now it is called Discordia. It is an Arthurian, medieval-kind of world. I don't know, if it's THE Arthurian world, but it doesn't seem to matter, since there seem to be various parallel and similar worlds.

- The boy is the Chosen One and should have jumped from the Here and Now through the mirror to the "Promised Land", in order to save it, but he didn't (end of "Imaginations..."). At that point, a big apocalyptic battle took place in the Promised Land, supposedly between the Fallen One and the Nine??

- The Nine are not gods, but were seen as gods in the Promised Land, but they are kind of very powerful magical beings. As far as I understood, the Crow is one of the Nine, kind of the leader, and there are also Hare, Fox, Bear, Falcon. The others are not mentioned.

- These are not the real names, because knowing the name gives you power over its bearer. The Crows name is "Storm", the Bear is "Arthur".

- The name of the boy is also "Arthur".

- Mordred is the Fallen One, and he is the son of the Void (?), who is the sister of Mother Time (??).

- During the time of "Imaginations...", the Nine ruled the Promised Land, but were attacked by Mordred. That's why they called for the Chosen One. They didn't know where he was, so they had to open all gates to the Promised Land. Magic flowed between both worlds and should have gone back to Camlann after the boy jumped, but he didn't. That's why a lot of magic was left in the Here and Now, after the gates were sealed again.

- The Here and Now changed drastically because of the magic (so today it is no longer similar to our world). The ones who could control the magic as part of science (the technocrats) used it to create one world government. The leaders are the religious leaders at the same time. They used the magic for a process called "Evocation", calling old mystic beings to come to life, etc. They created one world religion, combining all elements from the original religions.

- In the Here and Now, it is also now possible to travel through time and change historical and mythological events.

- The Here and Now of today is the setting where Arthur (now a man) lives. He seems to be in a kind of therapy, because he hears voices. But he can't make anything out of them, he tries to remember the messages and feelings from the past. He thinks that the new world order/religion is ridiculous.

- In Camlann, Mordred was victorious after "Imaginations...". By the cleansing, he created a new world order WITHOUT ANY gods or religion (because he truly felt that this was for the best). The nine left the world, six of them sailed to the "end of the world", three (probably Crow, Fox and Hare) disappeared.

- So we have now two opposed models starting a new world: one with one combined world religion with one god and lots of angels (probably for all the other beings from other old religions) in the Here and Now, one without any religion or gods in Camlann.


WHAT HAPPENS ON THE ALBUM:

- The Chronicler (Hansi?) is contacted by the Crow to write everything down and send visions/messages/prophecies to the Chosen One, to tell him what happened in Camlann. So that he awakes, remembers, etc. and seeks the last door to Camlann, the red mirror.

- So the songs on "Beyond The Red Mirror" are in part the tale of what happened or happens beyond the red mirror, the messages to or the visions of Arthur. But also his own thoughts.

- "The Ninth Wave" and "Twilight Of The Gods" describe the Cleansing of the Promised Land, probably sent as visions to Arthur, so that he knows what happened after he didn't jump.

- "Prophecies" seems to be about the awakening of Arthur, he gets the message to find the red door.

- "At The Edge Of Time" seems to tell how Arthur goes from door to door to find the red mirror. That is also described in his liner notes: After he awakes, he travels from universe to universe to find the last door to Camlann. But there also seems to be Mordred talking, I guess??

- Somehow, Arthur seems to get the holy grail on his journey ("Disturbance in the Here And Now", the songs "Ashes Of Eternity" and "The Holy Grail"), but I didn't really look into this yet. And why in the Here and Now??

- "The Throne" seems to be about the return of the Nine to Camlann, in order to get Mordred off the throne.

- I didn't really analyze the next songs, but it seems that in the end, Mordred is locked in eternal damnation, Arthur and the grail are lost, noone knows where. The crow was victorious, and everything is as it was before, as it was written originally (like King Arthur is somewhere, coming back someday, etc., etc.). Both worlds can arise from the ashes of a cleansing fire and start anew.


RANDOM THOUGHTS:

- The Bear was truly good and supposedly killed (?) and now there is a golem of the Bear (??). He is the highest of the Nine. And his name is Arthur?!? He was maybe killed by the Hare??

- The toad betrayed the nine (don't know if it's one of the nine??), but what else about it??

- There is something about Caesar?? Maybe the thing about historical events being changed by time traveling???

- The Norns are the daughters of Mother Time and her servants??

priderock
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#2 Post by priderock » 01 Feb 2015 13:36

Thanks, man...Unfortunately I really can't say nothing about the story till now(my EB edition has not even arrived yet), but I really appreciate your work! Hope this topic will grow :)

P.S. who do you think might be the "Savior" and I guess that the Holy Grail is a methaphor of the Christ..??? Ceaser is also a character from the Bible as far I remember.. But that's just my suggestions...

And you said that Arthur finds the religious for something ridiculous at first.. and then we have this:
"Who would have thought that I will hold it
The Holy Grail"

I don't know, I'm just shooting around :?
Last edited by priderock on 01 Feb 2015 14:03, edited 1 time in total.

Traveller in Time
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#3 Post by Traveller in Time » 01 Feb 2015 13:58

Wow really good work with writing down the stuff, i just can say i have the same impressions like you but i am also confused.
After reading it the first time i felt like a dumb boy. With second reading there is somehting getting clearer.
There are many connections between many storys and myth.
I just know that Hansi was inspired by Steven King's Book Doctor Sleep (written in RH interview) but also has some Matrix parts (i guess the cleansing and building up the new /old world part).It's like the master story which includes many ancient stories of the world somehow ;)
Hansi even said there aresome influences of Minority report and Fight Club.

I guess there will be no one true interpretation, because every good storyteller knows how to tell a story which can have several interpretations and that is what's so special with good storytelling you can always find new details and a whole new story of its own.

Looking forward to your interpretations and "gem discoveries"
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

OmegaSlayer
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#4 Post by OmegaSlayer » 01 Feb 2015 16:10

Caesar is not a Bible character.
He was the first dux (leader) of the Roman Repubblic, which became an empire after his death with Adriano, one of his protegees.
He lead many battles and expanded A LOT the Roman territory.
He was killed by a conjury led by his adoptive son Brutus in the Ides of March (which are mentioned in Ashes Of Eternity)

In my opinion it's mentioned to represent a "regicide" or better, a "Caesaricide", which is when the closest disciple kills the Governor of a Country.

priderock
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#5 Post by priderock » 01 Feb 2015 16:41

Ok, thanks... but it seems even more difficult for understanding the story now.., I think Kursch have gone too far with all the methaphors... :o But it's really interesting at the same time.

OmegaSlayer
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#6 Post by OmegaSlayer » 01 Feb 2015 17:06

Better if you guys read directly here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassinat ... ius_Caesar

I also would add that probably the episode is perceived in the tragic Shakespearean way, as it is the most known worldwide

magic_child
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#7 Post by magic_child » 01 Feb 2015 18:43

Thanks for the appreciation!

I think, I would like to understand the "real", first-level story first completely, before going to another level (like which metaphor stands for what, etc.). So no interpretation, but simply what happens in which song (and in which of the two worlds), which character is singing which lines, is doing what, is going where, etc.

I agree, in the end it is revealed that it is like a "master story" or even how the universe works, a bit like in "The Matrix". Everything is always "resetted", and everything starts all over again and again. The Crow says that the Hare, the Fox and the Crow made a deal with Mother Time, to gain something like almost eternal life (but they can die). So my idea is that they are plotting all these plans, in order to reset everything from time to time, so that new worlds and new gods can arise, so that everything starts again (which is what Mother Time wants, she always wins).

It is also said by the Crow that Mordred realized that it was a trick, a scheme, to simply keep the wheels in motion. At some point, he must have realized that he was just a pawn, playing in the game of his enemies. I also thought that he might try to talk to Arthur in some places in the songs, like trying to convince him that he is also just a pawn. But I'm not sure about that, have to find these lines again.

After all, Mordred and Arthur are like "mirrored souls", or something like that.

I think, most of the time the "Savior" is Arthur (the boy, now man), because he was supposed to save the Promised Land. But it could also be twisted in some places. Like for example, Mordred was a kind of Savior for the people first, he got rid of the Nine. But I didn't pay attention to where the word is used yet.

Arthur only finds the new religion of his world ridiculous (not religion in general), because it is a made-up religion, put together from all existing myths, with a lot of magical circus.

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warchanter
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#8 Post by warchanter » 02 Feb 2015 10:04

Cool!
I'll add some other facts:

1) In the album and notes also Medusa appears mentioned, but I still haven't figured out her role
2) in one of the earbook's illustrations (the one with the Blind Guardian) around the mirror we can clearly see Crow, Hare, Fox AND Rabbit. It seems it only appears here.

From what I understand

SPOILER WARNING

Six of the Nine are: Crow, Hare, Fox, Rabbit, Toad (the betrayer) and Bear (in golem form, since the true Bear has been killed by the Hare).

I have a feeling that the English version of the story is a somehow muddled adaptation of the original writing in German, so it may be that something got lost in translation.

OmegaSlayer
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#9 Post by OmegaSlayer » 02 Feb 2015 10:36

There's a deer too

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warchanter
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#10 Post by warchanter » 02 Feb 2015 12:27

OmegaSlayer wrote:There's a deer too
Yup, my bad, you are right. The Hare IS indeed the rabbit. So, to sum up

The known Nine: Crow, Hare, Fox, Bear, Deer, Toad. Three still missing.
According to the notes about The Third Wave form the beginning of the earbook, the Nine were seen as deities but were not gods in the stricts sense of the word and, albeit they live a very long life, are not immortal. When Mordred burned the temples in Camlann (Promised Land) the Nine fled aboard nine skyships. Six (I guess the ones we know of) headed for the "end of the world", while three (the missing ones probably) wanished into thin air in front of everyone.

magic_child
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#11 Post by magic_child » 02 Feb 2015 12:32

I think, there are a lot of hints in the liner notes, like names mentioned, etc., but since Hansi decided not to write down the story, but the thoughts and notes of some characters, it is very hard to find out everything.

And you are right, you also need to look at the illustrations, because in the lyrics, it is never mentioned who is talking in a song, but sometimes you can see it in the illustration for the song.

Some more speculation from my side:

"Disturbance in the Here And Now"
("Ashes Of Eternity" and "The Holy Grail")

I first was unsure, why the "Here and Now", because Arthur is already on his journey through various doors, and what has the "Here and Now" to do with him getting the grail? But now I think it might have to do with the time traveling. It is mentioned in the liner notes that they found a way to travel through time in the "Here and Now", and that this was the beginning of the end. That could also explain why Caesar, Judas, etc. are mentioned, maybe the people in the "Here and Now" try to alter history (that would cause the "disturbance").

And Mother Time is not amused about this, and maybe that is why she is helping Arthur to get the grail? I'm not sure about this, but you can see her in the illustration. We also know that this was not planned. The Crow is very upset, when it is revealed that the boy is called "Arthur" and that he is carrying the grail.

But it could also be different: The disturbance caused by the time travels could lead to Arthur getting the grail, by coincidence, because it changed the worlds he stepped through, from door to door. Or HE might be time traveling, visiting all the events, changing them, in order to get the grail. Or someone else??

The river Styx is also mentioned. So it seems that Arthur came to the Underworld, visited the dead, so to speak, to get the grail. There is also a line "meet the king", he could have met the "original King Arthur", from whom the got the grail?

But there is also the line "we together change the world" in "The Holy Grail", who is we? Arthur and Mother Time?? I think, at least you can see them both in the illustration for the song.

It also mentioned that he has to passover (probably to the "Promised Land"?) on the fourteenth day, Arthur also mentions this at the end of his liner notes. I think this part might be important to understand what is happening:

So on the fourteenth day passover
He took the firstborn sons
Execute him and now act as Judas, the chosen one



The Descending Of The Nine
("The Throne")

Again, speculation, but could it be that the people in Discordia kind of revolt, because they get more and more upset with Mordreds reign? It is said that the world without gods, religion and belief (like Mordred had envisioned) was doomed to fail, because people need it. I have the impression, they know that Arthur might be coming ("Someone's waiting on the other side"), and they want to get Mordred off the throne and help whoever is on the side. But this might also be the Nine, waiting behind the wall to return to the "Promised Land".
warchanter wrote: When Mordred burned the temples in Camlann (Promised Land) the Nine fled aboard nine skyships. Six (I guess the ones we know of) headed for the "end of the world", while three (the missing ones probably) wanished into thin air in front of everyone.
I think, somewhere it is mentioned that Crow, Fox and Hare hid (or something like that), while their six brothers went somewhere else (like really far away, different universes, traveling between worlds, etc.). So I think the three vanishing are Crow, Fox and Hare, hiding, making themselves invisible. They still want to interfere, plot and scheme with this world, while the other six seem to go away.

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warchanter
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#12 Post by warchanter » 02 Feb 2015 13:45

Re-reading the "confidential information" at the beginning of the Earbook I found out there is a mention of the Falcon.

Random musings:
The Nine ruled Camlann, the promised land, as Gods. Somehow Toad gave Mordred (apprentice of the Crow) the means to empowerment.
Mordred rebelled and forced the nine to flee Camlann. From now on Camlann is called Discordia.
Three of the Nine (probably Crow, Fox and Hare, as Magic_child noticed) vanished, the other six (among them Toad, Falcon, Deer and Bear) went far away to the end of the world.
Sometime during these events Fox and Hare were slain (but not forever, as they are bound to re-appear somewhere) while the Bear was killed (for real, and apparently by the Hare) and has been replaced by a golem with his appearence and a spark of his conscience.

The Crow fears the moment the truth abouth the Bear will be revealed as the Bear was the only one of the Nine (with the possible exception of the Falcon, too) that could be called "good".
It is worth mentioning that the real name of the Bear was Arthur.
The Boy's name is also Arthur. So we can speculate that maybe a fragment of the Bear's power transformed the Boy, giving him the power of magic.

OmegaSlayer
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#13 Post by OmegaSlayer » 02 Feb 2015 14:53

Maybe if we can "understand" how those animals represent in Nordic folklore we might understand who the other animals are.

Searching on wikipedia (not the best but a starting point indeed)

Crow
In Irish mythology, crows are associated with Morrigan, the goddess of war and death.[47]

The god Bran the Blessed – whose name means "crow" or "raven" — is associated with corvids and death; tradition holds that Bran's severed head is buried under the Tower of London, facing France — a possible genesis for the practice of keeping ravens in the Tower, said to protect the fortunes of Britain. In Cornish folklore, crows — magpies particularly — are associated with death and the "otherworld", and proscribes respectful greeting. The origin of "counting crows" as augury is British; however, the British version rather is to "count magpies" — their black and white pied colouring alluding to the realms of the living and dead.

In Norse mythology, Huginn and Muninn are a pair of common ravens that range the entire world, Midgard, bringing the god Odin information.

In Sweden, ravens are held to be the ghosts of murdered men.[48] In Denmark, the night raven is considered an exorcised spirit. There is a hole in its left wing where the stake used to exorcise it was driven into the earth. Those looking through the hole will become a night raven themselves.[49]

In Australian Aboriginal mythology, Crow is a trickster, culture hero, and ancestral being. Legends relating to Crow have been observed in various Aboriginal language groups and cultures across Australia; these commonly include stories relating to Crow's role in the theft of fire, the origin of death, and the killing of Eagle's son.


Crow on a branch, Maruyama Ōkyo (1733–1795)
The Chaldean myth the Epic of Gilgamesh, Utnapishtim releases a dove and raven to find land; however, the dove merely circles and returns. Only then does Utnapishtim send forth the raven, which does not return, and Utnapishtim concludes the raven has found land.[50]

According to Ovid's Metamorphoses, in Greek mythology, the god Apollo became enraged when the crow exposed his lover Coronis' tryst with a mortal, his ire transmuting the crow's feathers from white to black.[51]

Crows are mentioned often in Buddhism, especially Tibetan disciplines. The Dharmapala (protector of the Dharma) Mahakala is represented by a crow in one of his physical/earthly forms.[citation needed]

In Japanese mythology, a three-legged crow called Yatagarasu (八咫烏?, "eight-hand-crow")[52] is depicted.[53]

In Korean mythology, there is a three-legged crow known as Samjokgo (hangul: 삼족오; hanja: 三足烏).[citation needed]

In Chinese mythology, the world originally had ten suns either spiritually embodied as ten crows and/or carried by ten crows: when all ten decided to rise at once the effect was devastating to crops, so the gods sent their greatest archer Houyi, who shot down nine crows and spared only one. This mythology comes from a text in Shanhaijing, among other sources.[54]

In Hinduism, crows are thought of as carriers of information. They give omens to people regarding their situations. For example, when a crow crows in front of a person's house, he is expected to have special visitors that day. Also, in Hindu literature, crows have great memories which they use to give information.[citation needed]


House crow (Corvus splendens)
In the Story of Bhusunda, a chapter of the Yoga Vasistha, a very old sage in the form of a crow, Bhusunda, recalls a succession of epochs in the earth's history, as described in Hindu cosmology. He survived several destructions, living on a wish-fulfilling tree on Mount Meru.[55] Crows are also considered ancestors in Hinduism and during Śrāddha, the practice of offering food or pinda to crows is still in vogue.[56]

In Islam, crow is one of the five animals for which there is no blame on the one who kills them.[57]

Ancient Greek authors tell how a jackdaw, being a social creature, may be caught with a dish of oil that it falls into while looking at its own reflection.[58] The Roman poet Ovid saw them as a harbinger of rain (Amores 2,6, 34).[59] In Greek legend, princess Arne was bribed with gold by King Minos of Crete, and was punished for her avarice by being transformed into an equally avaricious jackdaw, who still seeks shiny things.[60]

In Aesop's Fables, the jackdaw embodies stupidity in one tale, by starving while waiting for figs on a fig tree to ripen, and vanity in another – the jackdaw sought to become king of the birds with borrowed feathers, but was shamed when they fell off.[59] Pliny notes how the Thessalians, Illyrians and Lemnians cherished jackdaws for destroying grasshoppers' eggs. The Veneti are fabled to have bribed the jackdaws to spare their crops.[58] Another ancient Greek and Roman adage runs, "The swans will sing when the jackdaws are silent," meaning that educated or wise people will speak after the foolish become quiet.[61] In reality, corvids are among the most intelligent birds in the world, and this traditional association with ignorance is quite inaccurate. However, there is one other Aesop Fable where the crow is depicted as very cunning. He comes up to a pitcher and knows that his beak is too short to reach the water and if he tips it over, all the water will fall out. The crow then proceeds to pick up pebbles and places them in the pitcher so the water may rise and he can reach it to relieve his thirst.[62]
Bear
There is evidence of prehistoric bear worship. Anthropologists such as Joseph Campbell have regarded this as a common feature in most of the fishing and hunting-tribes. The prehistoric Finns, along with most Siberian peoples, considered the bear as the spirit of one's forefathers. This is why the bear (karhu) was a greatly respected animal, with several euphemistic names (such as otso, mesikämmen and kontio). The bear is the national animal of Finland.

This kind of attitude is reflected in the traditional Russian fairy tale "Morozko", whose arrogant protagonist Ivan tries to kill a mother bear and her cubs—and is punished and humbled by having his own head turned magically into a bear's head and being subsequently shunned by human society.

"The Brown Bear of Norway" is a Scottish fairy tale telling the adventures of a girl who married a prince magically turned into a bear, and who managed to get him back into a human form by the force of her love and after many trials and difficulties. In the 1970s, this story was adapted into the East German fantasy film The Singing Ringing Tree and broadcast on British television.

Evidence of bear worship has been found in early Chinese and Ainu cultures, as well (see Iomante). Korean people in their mythology identify the bear as their ancestor and symbolic animal. According to the Korean legend, a god imposed a difficult test on a she-bear; when she passed it, the god turned her into a woman and married her.

Legends of saints taming bears are common in the Alpine zone. In the arms of the bishopric of Freising, the bear is the dangerous totem animal tamed by St. Corbinian and made to carry his civilised baggage over the mountains. A bear also features prominently in the legend of St. Romedius, who is also said to have tamed one of these animals and had the same bear carry him from his hermitage in the mountains to the city of Trento.

Similar stories are told of Saint Gall and Saint Columbanus.

This recurrent motif was used by the Church as a symbol of the victory of Christianity over paganism.[58] In the Norse settlements of northern England during the 10th century, a type of "hogback" grave cover of a long narrow block of stone, with a shaped apex like the roof beam of a long house, is carved with a muzzled, thus Christianised, bear clasping each gable end. Though the best collection of these is in the church at Brompton, North Yorkshire,[59] their distribution ranges across northern England and southern Scotland, with a scattered few in the north Midlands and single survivals in Wales, Cornwall, and Ireland; a late group is found in the Orkney Islands.

Bears are a popular feature of many children's stories, including Goldilocks and "The Story of the Three Bears", the Berenstain Bears, and Winnie the Pooh.

The Russian bear is a common national personification for Russia (as well as the Soviet Union). The brown bear is also Finland's national animal.


The flag of California
In the United States, the black bear is the state animal of Louisiana, New Mexico, and West Virginia; the grizzly bear is the state animal of both Montana and California. Bears also appear in the state seals of California and Missouri.

In the UK, the bear and staff has long featured on the heraldic arms of Warwickshire county.[60]

Bears appear in the canting arms of Bern and Berlin. Bear symbols are used extensively in Berlin street decorations.[61]


Misha, the Russian Bear mascot of the 1980 Moscow Olympic Games
Also, "bear", "bruin", or specific types of bears are popular nicknames or mascots, for example, for sports teams (Bayern Munich, Chicago Bears, California Golden Bears, UCLA Bruins, Boston Bruins); and a bear cub called Misha was mascot of the 1980 Summer Olympics in Moscow, Soviet UnionUSSR.

Smokey Bear has become a part of American culture since his introduction in 1944. Known to almost all Americans, he and his message, "Only you can prevent forest fires" (updated in 2001 to "Only you can prevent wildfires"), have been a symbol of preserving woodlands.[62] Smokey wears a hat similar to one worn by U.S. Forest Service rangers; state police officers in some states wear a similar style, giving rise to the CB slang "bear" or "Smokey" for the highway patrol.

The name Beowulf has been hypothesized to mean "bee-wolf", a kenning for "bear".[63]

The physical attributes and behaviours of bears are commonly used in figures of speech in English.

In the stock market, a bear market is a period of declining prices. Pessimistic forecasting or negative activity is said to be bearish (due to the stereotypical posture of bears looking downwards), and one who expresses bearish sentiment is a bear. Its opposite is a bull market, and bullish sentiment from bulls.
In gay slang, the term "bear" refers to male individuals who possess physical attributes much like a bear, such as a heavy build, abundant body hair, and commonly facial hair.
A bear hug is typically a tight hug that involves wrapping one's arms around another person, often leaving that person's arms immobile.
Bear tracking – in the old Western states of the U.S. and, to this day, in the former Dakota Territory, the expression "you ain't just a bear trackin'" is used to mean "you ain't lying" or "that's for sure". This expression evolved as an outgrowth of the experience pioneer hunters and mountainmen had when tracking bear. Bears often lay down false tracks and are notorious for doubling back on anything tracking them. If you are not following bear tracks, you are not following false trails or leads in your thoughts, words or deeds.
In Korean culture, a person is referred to as being "like a bear" when they are stubborn or not sensitive to what is happening around their surroundings. Used as a phrase to call a person "stubborn bear".
The Bible compares King David's "bitter warriors", who fight with such fury that they could overcome many times their number of opponents, with "a bear robbed of her whelps in the field" (2 Samuel 17:8 s:Bible (King James)/2 Samuel#Chapter 17). The phrase "a bereaved bear" (דב שכול), derived from this Biblical source, is still used in the literary Hebrew of contemporary Israel.

OmegaSlayer
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#14 Post by OmegaSlayer » 02 Feb 2015 14:58

Hare
The hare in African folk tales is a trickster; some of the stories about the hare were retold among African slaves in America, and are the basis of the Brer Rabbit stories. The hare appears in English folklore in the saying "as mad as a March hare" and in the legend of the White Hare that alternatively tells of a witch who takes the form of a white hare and goes out looking for prey at night or of the spirit of a broken-hearted maiden who cannot rest and who haunts her unfaithful lover.[19][20] In Irish folklore, the hare is often associated with Sidh (Fairy) or other pagan elements. In these stories, characters who harm hares often suffer dreadful consequences.

While oft repeated that the hare was associated with the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, and that pagan symbols were appropriated into the Christian tradition as the Easter Bunny, no primary sources support this myth. It seems to be a modern invention.[21]

Many cultures, including the Chinese, Japanese, and Mexican, see a hare in the pattern of dark patches in the moon (see Moon rabbit); this tradition forms the basis of the Angelo Branduardi song "The Hare in the Moon".[22] The constellation Lepus represents a hare.

One of Aesop's fables tells the story of The Tortoise and the Hare. The hare was regarded as an animal sacred to Aphrodite and Eros because of its high libido. Live hares were often presented as a gift of love.

In June 2014, the Pushkin House (the Institute of Russian Literature of the Russian Academy of Science) will host the international conference, "The Philosophy of the Hare: Unexpected perspectives in the research in the humanities".[23] Papers on various aspects of hares and rabbits in the world cultures will be presented.[24] The conference's organizers came up with its idea and name as a retort to an earlier claim by the Russia's Minister of Culture Vladimir Medinsky that humanities scholars were wasting government money conducting research on incomprehensible topics with names such as the "Philosophy of the Hare".[24]
Falcon
(Nothing about falcon, so I searched hawk, which I know it's not the same and found very little anyway)
A war hawk, or simply hawk for short, is a term used in politics for somebody favouring war.
Frog
Frogs feature prominently in folklore, fairy tales, and popular culture. They tend to be portrayed as benign, ugly, and clumsy, but with hidden talents. Examples include Michigan J. Frog, "The Frog Prince", and Kermit the Frog. The Warner Brothers cartoon One Froggy Evening features Michigan J. Frog, that will only dance and sing for the demolition worker who opens his time capsule, but will not perform in public.[196] "The Frog Prince" is a fairy tale about a frog that turns into a handsome prince after he has rescued a princess's golden ball and she has taken him into her palace.[197] Kermit the Frog is a conscientious and disciplined character from The Muppet Show and Sesame Street; while openly friendly and greatly talented, he is often portrayed as cringing at the fanciful behavior of more flamboyant characters.[198]

Toads have a more sinister reputation. It was believed in European folklore that they were associated with witches as their familiar spirits and had magical powers. The toxic secretions from their skin was used in brewing evil potions, but was also put to use to create magical cures for human and livestock ailments. They were associated with the devil; in John Milton's Paradise Lost, Satan was depicted as a toad pouring poison into Eve's ear.[199]

The Moche people of ancient Peru worshipped animals, and often depicted frogs in their art.[200] In Panama, local legend held that good fortune would come to anyone who spotted a Panamanian golden frog. Some believed when one of these frogs died, it would turn into a golden talisman known as a huaca. Today, despite being extinct in the wild, Panamanian golden frogs remain an important cultural symbol and can be found on decorative cloth molas made by the Kuna people. They also appear as part of the inlaid design on a new overpass in Panama City, on T-shirts, and even on lottery tickets.[201]
Deer
Deer are represented in heraldry by the stag or hart, or less often, by the hind, and the brocket (a young stag up to two years), respectively. Stag's heads and antlers also appear as charges. The old name for deer was simply cerf, and it is chiefly the head that appears on the ancient arms. Examples of deer in coats of arms can be found in the arms of Hertfordshire, England, and its county town of Hertford; both are examples of canting arms, and also in the coat of arms of Northern Ireland.

Several Norwegian municipalities have a stag or stag's head in their arms: Gjemnes, Hitra, Hjartdal, Rendalen and Voss. A deer appears on the arms of the Israeli Postal Authority (see Hebrew language Wikipedia page).[22]

For the role of deer in mythology, see deer in mythology.
In Indian epic Ramayana, Sita is lured by a Golden deer which Rama tries to catch. In absence of both Rama and Lakshman, Ravana kidnaps Sita.
The deer plays a large role in Scottish Gaelic poetry (fiadh) of the Highlands of Scotland, where it is seen as a noble creature, and often used as a flattering simile or metaphor when used in comparison to a famous warrior, hero or chief. Other animals include the salmon and golden eagle.
The fiction book Fire Bringer is about a young fawn who is born and goes on a quest to save the deer kind who are called the Herla in the novel.
In Christmas lore (such as in the narrative poem "A Visit from St. Nicholas"), reindeer are often depicted pulling the sleigh of Santa Claus.
Saint Hubertus saw a stag with a crucifix between its antlers while hunting on Good Friday and was converted to Christianity by the vision. This story was transferred to Hubert from St Eustace, of whom it was originally told.
Deer have been a subject in Chinese paintings numerous times as a tranquility symbol.
The Yaqui deer song accompanies the deer dance which is performed by a pascola [from the Spanish 'pascua', Easter] dancer (also known as a deer dancer). Pascolas will perform at religio-social functions many times of the year, but especially during Lent and Easter.
Deer are considered messengers to the gods in Japan. Deer dance has been traditionally performed in various parts of Japan, especially in Northeastern areas, as a ritual.[23]
Deer are depicted in many materials by various pre-Hispanic civilizations in the Andes.[24]
One famous fictional deer is Bambi. In the Disney film Bambi, he is a white-tailed deer, while in Felix Salten's original book Bambi, A Life in the Woods, he is a roe deer.
The Pulitzer Prize-winning 1938 novel The Yearling, written by Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings, was about a boy's relationship with a baby deer, later adapted to a children's film that was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Picture.
In The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the first published book in The Chronicles of Narnia series, the adult Pevensies, now kings and queens of Narnia, chase the White Stag on a hunt, as the Stag is said to grant its captor a wish. The hunt is key in returning the Pevensies to their home in England.
In the Harry Potter series, the Patronus Charm that Harry Potter conjures to repel Dementors is a silver stag. James Potter, Harry's father, had an Animagus form as a stag. Also, Harry's mother Lily Potter, and subsequently Severus Snape's, Patronus form was a doe.
In one of the stories of Baron Munchausen, the baron encounters a stag while eating cherries and, without ammunition, fires the cherry-pits at the stag with his musket, but it escapes. The next year, the baron encounters a stag with a cherry tree growing from its head; presumably this is the animal he had shot at the previous year.
In The Animals of Farthing Wood, a deer called The Great White Stag is the leader of all the animal residents of the nature reserve White Deer Park.
A picture of a stag was used as part of the logo design for the House of Fraser department store until 2006.
In the Song of Ice and Fire book series and its TV adaptation, Game of Thrones, a crowned stag is the coat of arms of House Baratheon.
There's also a huge piece about Deer in Mithology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_in_mythology

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#15 Post by t.a.j. » 02 Feb 2015 15:36

Talking animals are straight from the realm of fables and children's books and all the animals mentioned are typical of such characters.
http://www.gedichtblog.de
They say that there's a broken light for every heart on Broadway.
They say that life's a game, then they take the board away.
They give you masks and costumes and an outline of the story
Then leave you all to improvise their vicious cabaret...


Still the goddamn Batman.

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#16 Post by Traveller in Time » 02 Feb 2015 21:37

the fox and the hare destroyed once the a plan of the crow
and the toad betrayd them all with helping the fallen one

(maybe the crow isn't that good at all, remembering 'Wait for an answer':
"Wait for an Answer" is a story Hansi wrote about an unusual friendship between a hare and a fox. They both have to avoid the genocide created by a tribe of racist crows in a story about hope and war.)
Again some hint or just coincidence?
At least the crow doesn't know everyhting too, but manipulates even the narrator (hansi?) to tell the story, so everyone is just playing his part in the story but also being relevant for the others. Like a scripted story, but you think you are free in decisions and actions but in the end it always ends the same und you fullfill the same prophecy without recognizing it (like Mordred and even Artur?) Meanwhile i think Mordred is Artur just in parallel universe (that's why Hansi mentioned the Fight Club).

Another mystic topic is that after the magic was on the wrong side of the mirror, it was discovery by Oppenheimer (nuclear bomb)
with this power and in the end there is only one government in the end and build up an empire with all mystic and religous elements to one
and now here comes: old spirits and mystical creatures are revived (can it be the nine?) then again Hansi would bring the story into an endless circle with a question like "what was first, egg or hen"

This story reminds a bit of Donnie Darko, too
Concernign about time travelling and two worlds (parallel universe or tangent universe dealing with an artificial like the holy grail can be) (not to mention a rabbit, which is leading like the white rabbit in Alice, which is also mentioned by Hansi: Artur a depressive oppositve of Alice, yeah this Alice )
To get a clue what is it about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCGux_3VUjs
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#17 Post by warchanter » 03 Feb 2015 15:41

Traveller in Time wrote:the fox and the hare destroyed once the a plan of the crow
and the toad betrayd them all with helping the fallen one

(maybe the crow isn't that good at all, remembering 'Wait for an answer':
"Wait for an Answer" is a story Hansi wrote about an unusual friendship between a hare and a fox. They both have to avoid the genocide created by a tribe of racist crows in a story about hope and war.)
Again some hint or just coincidence?
At least the crow doesn't know everyhting too, but manipulates even the narrator (hansi?) to tell the story,
I like this sort of "dig for the treasure" run to put together the various parts from this puzzle. :-D

the Crow and a Mirror also appear in Straight through the mirror" from ATiTM. I don't know if it is a coincidence or a deliberate nod, but the lyrics of that song fit perfectly within the BtRM storyline.

Also, I think the storyteller could be THE Blind Guardian and not Hansi (after all, a hooded figure appears in some of the pictures from the earbook)

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#18 Post by OmegaSlayer » 03 Feb 2015 16:36

Which animals appeared on "Road Of No Release"? ;)

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#19 Post by magic_child » 03 Feb 2015 16:47

Hans said some interesting things in the RockHard-Interview:

- While the boy grew up and lived 20 years in the "Here and Now" (like the time between "Imaginations..." and "Beyond..."), in the "Promised Land" several thousand years have passed.

- The story is told from three perspectives: from a kind of dictator in the fantasy world (I would say, Mordred in Discordia), from a god-like group (the Crow, the Hare, and so on), and from the young man (Arthur).

- In "Grand Parade", Arthur stands in front of the same decision like 20 years ago. And again, the end is not revealed (if he goes to the "Promised Land" or not).

- The basic idea is from "Doctor Sleep" by Stephen King, it's about inspiration, and Hansi also uses Greek and Christian mythology.

- The Holy Grail is in one world, but should be in the other. That's why he has to be brought to the red mirror.

- There are also modern influences, like the digital age, and how information develops and is used today.


=> So I think, it is important to find out who of the three perspectives are singing the several lines in the songs. My impression is that it is switching A LOT, within one song. One line could be Arthur, the next Mordred, and so on.

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#20 Post by OmegaSlayer » 03 Feb 2015 17:52

I started reading the liner notes now.
I'm pretty confident Hansi is the writer and the Crow is actually the Blind Guardian, which BG always said wasn't a good character.

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#21 Post by warchanter » 03 Feb 2015 18:22

OmegaSlayer wrote:Which animals appeared on "Road Of No Release"? ;)
Yup bro, but only the fox, and that particular song is indeed taken from "The innkeeper's song". Having read it, I can assure you it is very specific ;-)
Thus said, it can very well be that Hansi took inspiration also from that work. Maybe BG sort of tried to (loosely) join various works through the years in a sort of connection across space and time!
Last edited by warchanter on 03 Feb 2015 18:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#22 Post by warchanter » 03 Feb 2015 18:24

OmegaSlayer wrote:I started reading the liner notes now.
I'm pretty confident Hansi is the writer and the Crow is actually the Blind Guardian, which BG always said wasn't a good character.
Mmmm... now that you mention it, it could be true. In the liner notes the "writer" says the crow is indeed blind.
But I like to think otherwise nonetheless :-D

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#23 Post by OmegaSlayer » 03 Feb 2015 20:00

warchanter wrote:
OmegaSlayer wrote:Which animals appeared on "Road Of No Release"? ;)
Yup bro, but only the fox, and that particular song is indeed taken from "The innkeeper's song". Having read it, I can assure you it is very specific ;-)
Thus said, it can very well be that Hansi took inspiration also from that work. Maybe BG sort of tried to (loosely) join various works through the years in a sort of connection across space and time!
That's what I actually think Hansi's doing

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#24 Post by Lordmarioh » 04 Feb 2015 00:04

I'm really enjoying all the theories and ideas about the story. This is making the whole Beyond the Red Mirror experience a lot greater to me. Thank you very much, guys!

One thing I'll add: Ate the 70000 tons, I got a quick talk to Hansi and asked him about the connections between IFTOS and BTRM, because everywhere is written BTRM is following the events of Bright Eyes and And the Story Ends, but I always felt Imaginations (the track) was also a part of the story. He explained me that, in some sort of way, Imaginations was also connected, but then, he started to name others songs from the album, saying they were connected too (it was a very loud place - pretty maids was playing - and also, I can't remmember much), but I remmember him mentioning Mordred's Song (which sounds a little obvious, since the Fallen On is Mordred, but the whole idea of someone defying his own fate is important in this story, I believe.

In the end, I believe BTRM is Hansi's The Dark Tower - a story which connects all other concepts he presented in older songs. If we follow that stream, have you guys ever considered the idea that both Valhalla and Twilight of the Gods tell a story about the destruction of gods?

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#25 Post by Traveller in Time » 04 Feb 2015 00:17

i wonder if the lately released box set TGTSAT made Hansi review all the lyrics and then he came up with such idea ;)

Imaginations was first step with connecting several stories, so yes it's a big part if you ask me.

I just didn't found any connenction to the LOTR world yet, besides:
The crow is called Storm: Stormcrow, Gandalfs negative name given by Theoden in times of trouble (which suits, too) ;)


Hansi if you read this thread, stop laughing!! It's a real Twist in the Myth! :D
WE are serious!
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#26 Post by magic_child » 04 Feb 2015 01:11

It's true, Hansi mentioned in an interview, that "Beyond..." makes a full concept out of "Imaginations...", belatedly. Originally, it was not intended, but since he was able to squeeze in Arthur, Mordred, time travel, Christian mythology, etc. into the story, he could connect every song from "Imaginations...".

Did anyone ever do something like this before? Connecting unrelated works to make it one large concept?

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#27 Post by ErHaO » 04 Feb 2015 02:37

magic_child wrote:It's true, Hansi mentioned in an interview, that "Beyond..." makes a full concept out of "Imaginations...", belatedly. Originally, it was not intended, but since he was able to squeeze in Arthur, Mordred, time travel, Christian mythology, etc. into the story, he could connect every song from "Imaginations...".

Did anyone ever do something like this before? Connecting unrelated works to make it one large concept?
Like the poster Lordmarioh said, this may very well be sort of Hansi's Dark Tower (the Stephen King series, both BG and D&W have songs about those novels). So yes, it has been done before (not sure if it is done on a musical level, though). As for the writer being Hansi, (Dark Tower spoiler below)


SPOILER Stephen King also appeared in his own series as a writer SPOILER.



And to be fair, a lot of BG songs are about events/myths/well known stories that excist within our world, thus it can make sense that those events/myths actually happened and are tied to the concepts lore. To clarify: the lyrics of a lot of older BG songs are not really Hansi's own stories, offcourse, but could be canon within the BtRM lore.

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#28 Post by OmegaSlayer » 04 Feb 2015 08:36

Imaginations the song is really about Arthur's (the kid) feelings and stance towards life and its perception.
It always gave me the idea of a sort of Bastian from Neverending Story (peculiar that BG never did a song about that book yet) mixed with the concept of Eternal Champion from Michael Moorcock's literature.
For those not aware of what the Eternal Champion and the Multiverse implies...the Eternal Champion is an entity that has a projection in any single plane of the Multiverse, which means that he exists in any reality of space, time and possibility.

Now, my take, but I must read much more is that the death of bear, which was deemed good BY THE CROW, bore the birth of Arthur AND Mordred, 2 faces of the same medals that had to reunite somehow and be back to be a GREY entity (I refer to Twilight of the Gods about "Black or white/for me it's grey".
I also want to point out that bear is not only the name of animal but a verb

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#29 Post by Lordmarioh » 04 Feb 2015 12:31

I, too, believe Arthur and Mordred are the same person - mirrored souls, as mentioned before. In And the Story Ends, the Crow says to Arthur "We're not alone, there's someone else, too from the mirror's other side. Reflecting the cruel part of your soul, it's time for your choice".

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#30 Post by starschwar » 05 Feb 2015 08:31

Reposting my initial interpretations of the album after my first day of listening. Tomorrow, I'll take a crack at reconciling my thoughts with the other posters' observations. I love that there's so much room for interpretation, here.

Code: Select all

Arthur, the character from Bright Eyes, and And the Story Ends - and possibly other songs on Imaginations?  Refused to enter the mirror twenty years ago.  This has caused a cataclysm.  On our side of the mirror, scientists have discovered magic, and, though its power (including time travel), history has been altered, and society has lost music, united under a bizarre coagulation of all religions, both modern and ancient.  Only our protagonist seems to be aware of the temporal displacement, and even then, only partially.  He goes from referring to standard units of time from "Days" to "Quantum Times" without making note of this.

His absence in Discorda, the other world, has allowed Mordred, the Fallen Son, to incite a rebellion against the Nine gods of that world.  However, there's some suggestion that Arthur may be counted among them, and that they themselves are not true gods, but powerful kings.  In which case, nine powerful kings... the Nazgul, perhaps?  Maybe I'm reaching there.  At any rate, Mordred seals the Nine away and shuts Discordia off from our realm.  The only viable passage that remains is the Red Mirror.

The Crow, a mysterious manipulator, appears to Arthur in his mirror. Whether he was the one Arthur spoke to long ago, or if it was Mordred, or someone else entirely, I can't pinpoint.  Regardless, the Crow convinces Arthur of his destiny: he is to find the Red Mirror, and free the old gods, saving Discordia from Mordred's tyranny.  Hopping through dimensions, Arthur must also seek out the Holy Grail, which was hidden long ago... by whom?  Not sure about that much.  At some point, Arthur is mortally wounded.  Betrayed by his animal companions (Toad, Fox, Hare, Crow, or some combination thereof?), I think.  At death's door, Arthur is still adamant that there will be divine intervention, and Mordred will be defeated.

In the first bonus track, the Crow converses with... someone.  The mirror itself?  One of the powerful entities mentioned throughout (Time, Void, Fire, etc?).  It is here that it is revealed that Arthur is being manipulated.  The bit about people fading away due to being trapped in his mind is interesting to me.  Is it possible that his imagination is the key to magic itself?  It's a little abstract for me, can't quite wrap my head around it.

Arthur encounters Time herself, who presents him with the Grail and resurrects him.  Rallying around this miraculous event, the people of Discordia are galvanized against the tyrannical Mordred.  Mordred tempts Arthur to put his quest aside, cautioning him that he will never reach paradise if he follows his actions through to completion.  Complicating matters, he discovers that Storm, the Crow, had lied to him about critical details of his quest.  Facing the possibility of failure, Arthur puts his faith in the Grail, and takes it with him through the Red Mirror.  The Nine are freed, but their power is stripped from them, and are made human.  Fire, the being that made the mirror red is set free (or returned from our realm, perhaps? An inverse Promethus sort of situation?).  The denizens of Discordia celebrate, for they are now free, not only from Mordred's reign, but the domination of the Nine.  Their destiny is their own... but the lyrics tell us that nothing has/will change.  Perhaps it is the nature of mortal man to destroy eachother, even without the pretext of religious conflicts?  Or with Fire set loose, they are still doomed?  Or perhaps they will continue the cycle, with one faction praising Arthur's deeds, and the other lamenting the loss of Mordred - Arthur is explicitly compared to Judas at one point, after all.  Regardless, Arthur and Mordred are both condemned to Void.  Arthur's light grows more intense despite this cruel fate, while Mordred swears revenge....  is this but the middle chapter of a trilogy?  I hope so!

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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#31 Post by priderock » 05 Feb 2015 08:49

starschwar wrote:Reposting my initial interpretations of the album after my first day of listening. Tomorrow, I'll take a crack at reconciling my thoughts with the other posters' observations. I love that there's so much room for interpretation, here.

Code: Select all

Arthur, the character from Bright Eyes, and And the Story Ends - and possibly other songs on Imaginations?  Refused to enter the mirror twenty years ago.  This has caused a cataclysm.  On our side of the mirror, scientists have discovered magic, and, though its power (including time travel), history has been altered, and society has lost music, united under a bizarre coagulation of all religions, both modern and ancient.  Only our protagonist seems to be aware of the temporal displacement, and even then, only partially.  He goes from referring to standard units of time from "Days" to "Quantum Times" without making note of this.

His absence in Discorda, the other world, has allowed Mordred, the Fallen Son, to incite a rebellion against the Nine gods of that world.  However, there's some suggestion that Arthur may be counted among them, and that they themselves are not true gods, but powerful kings.  In which case, nine powerful kings... the Nazgul, perhaps?  Maybe I'm reaching there.  At any rate, Mordred seals the Nine away and shuts Discordia off from our realm.  The only viable passage that remains is the Red Mirror.

The Crow, a mysterious manipulator, appears to Arthur in his mirror. Whether he was the one Arthur spoke to long ago, or if it was Mordred, or someone else entirely, I can't pinpoint.  Regardless, the Crow convinces Arthur of his destiny: he is to find the Red Mirror, and free the old gods, saving Discordia from Mordred's tyranny.  Hopping through dimensions, Arthur must also seek out the Holy Grail, which was hidden long ago... by whom?  Not sure about that much.  At some point, Arthur is mortally wounded.  Betrayed by his animal companions (Toad, Fox, Hare, Crow, or some combination thereof?), I think.  At death's door, Arthur is still adamant that there will be divine intervention, and Mordred will be defeated.

In the first bonus track, the Crow converses with... someone.  The mirror itself?  One of the powerful entities mentioned throughout (Time, Void, Fire, etc?).  It is here that it is revealed that Arthur is being manipulated.  The bit about people fading away due to being trapped in his mind is interesting to me.  Is it possible that his imagination is the key to magic itself?  It's a little abstract for me, can't quite wrap my head around it.

Arthur encounters Time herself, who presents him with the Grail and resurrects him.  Rallying around this miraculous event, the people of Discordia are galvanized against the tyrannical Mordred.  Mordred tempts Arthur to put his quest aside, cautioning him that he will never reach paradise if he follows his actions through to completion.  Complicating matters, he discovers that Storm, the Crow, had lied to him about critical details of his quest.  Facing the possibility of failure, Arthur puts his faith in the Grail, and takes it with him through the Red Mirror.  The Nine are freed, but their power is stripped from them, and are made human.  Fire, the being that made the mirror red is set free (or returned from our realm, perhaps? An inverse Promethus sort of situation?).  The denizens of Discordia celebrate, for they are now free, not only from Mordred's reign, but the domination of the Nine.  Their destiny is their own... but the lyrics tell us that nothing has/will change.  Perhaps it is the nature of mortal man to destroy eachother, even without the pretext of religious conflicts?  Or with Fire set loose, they are still doomed?  Or perhaps they will continue the cycle, with one faction praising Arthur's deeds, and the other lamenting the loss of Mordred - Arthur is explicitly compared to Judas at one point, after all.  Regardless, Arthur and Mordred are both condemned to Void.  Arthur's light grows more intense despite this cruel fate, while Mordred swears revenge....  is this but the middle chapter of a trilogy?  I hope so!

Thanks, man!!! It's very helpful !!! :)

priderock
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#32 Post by priderock » 05 Feb 2015 13:28

The guy here talks a lot for the story, but he really speaks too fast for my English..Anyway, it might be helpful if someone can take from his thoughts :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NwDfR-PnUjE

Traveller in Time
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#33 Post by Traveller in Time » 05 Feb 2015 23:16

Question:What is the crow?

HK: The Crow? Definitely no bird. A long term companion - but not the Guardian. Yet, it has the ability to appear as a bird as done in "Wait for an answer" and "Straight Through the Mirror". Funny enough, in German I consider it to be of female sex and in English consequently of male gender.
Last edited by Traveller in Time on 05 Feb 2015 23:47, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry about my bad english, but the good one is on vacation!

RandomName
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#34 Post by RandomName » 05 Feb 2015 23:17

I have been supposing that the Crow is not a bird, and Hansi just confirmed that!

==

What is the Crow?

[–]blindguardianband[S] 3 points 5 minutes ago

The Crow? Definitely no bird. A long term companion - but not the Guardian. Yet, it has the ability to appear as a bird as done in "Wait for an answer" and "Straight Through the Mirror". Funny enough, in German I consider it to be of female sex and in English consequently of male gender. -HK

http://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/ ... _of_blind/
==

I think the rest of Nine are not animals either; their names are rather pseudonyms that may refer to their ability to appear as animals or (rather) to magic abilities traditionally attributed to these animals.

starschwar
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#35 Post by starschwar » 06 Feb 2015 00:32

Another listen done, and I have some new thoughts.

As others have surmised, the animals are indeed the Nine. That flew over my head, initially. Their true forms remain a mystery, but the communicate beyond their prison in the form of animals. Considering Mordred wanted to "delete the crow", I wouldn't be surprised if these are some sort of mechanical proxies. Golems, robots, what have you.

"Here and Now" is, as has been said, the world in which Arthur dwells. I still like to think that it was originally our world, altered through the time travel Caesar used to secure power.

The way I see it, Arthur is the offspring of Time and Space. Moreover, Time, Space, Fire, Void, etc. are a more powerful order of gods (Titans, etc). The Crow and the others of the Nine had betrayed these elder gods, banishing Time and Space between the worlds, and imprisoning Fire behind the Red Mirror. It is through their mastery of fire that they ruled Discordia. The Crow, however, has another agenda, secret from his fellows.

The person Arthur saw behind the mirror in Imaginations was The Bear, who is Discordia's version of himself. Another Stranger (Him), if you will. The Nine (or was it Ten at that point?) required an Arthur - it didn't matter which - to sacrifice him for some vital task. I want to say that the sacrifice is what bound Fire beyond the mirror in the first place. As the Arthur of Here and Now declined, the Nine conspired to sacrifice The Bear in his stead. They may or may not have manipulated Mordred to perform the sacrifice - I'm not sure of that. Regardless, this began their downfall. Mordred, son of The Bear, the Fallen Son, swore revenge. He intended to seal the Nine away forever, and extinguish them, freeing Discordia of their influence.

Arthur's last temptation, Xanadu, isn't just his own, personal salvation. I think Mordred is offering him an alternative. Should they join forces, he suggests that he might save the Here and Now, liberating it from Caesar, and his world religion. Essentially, Mordred wants Arthur to follow in his footsteps, freeing his father's doppleganger's world from the tyranny of theocracy. Arthur refuses, and takes the grail through the mirror.

Fire is set free. I don't think this is a cataclysmic event so much as a representation of the power the people of Discorida now wield. They are are equal footing with their former rulers, possessing knowledge that they can use to decide their own destiny. But perhaps, that is too much power for mortals, and the cycle will continue. This is The Crow's true aspiration - assuring the continued violence.


And Arthur? Mordred curses his bloodline, dooming them to walk a similar fate. What will become of the Mordred of the Here and Now, I wonder?

ErHaO
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#36 Post by ErHaO » 06 Feb 2015 14:24

I wonder how much time Hansi spent during the non-touring period fleshing out his lore and writing the events that take place. He specifically mentions Straight Trough the Mirror and Wait for an Answer in relation to the Crow character, so I am pretty sure it indeed was his intention to connect those to a certain extent (that is the beauty of fantasy and having dimensions, time and portals as keys to the story).

I know they decided later on to make it a concept, but I suspect Hansi at least had some songs in mind in connection to this story (we know that the idea came up while remixing in 2011 four years ago). The story, while open for interpretation (which was his aim, as he said in an interview), seems pretty extensive.

This weekend I will really try to make something out of it with the earbook and see if I agree with the above.

starschwar
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Joined: 05 Feb 2015 06:27

Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#37 Post by starschwar » 06 Feb 2015 21:03

While I can't point to all the specific examples, I get the feeling that this album is intended to connect a lot of of BG's work, in some form or another. Discordia's sun and stars vanish after the Nine are sealed. It is the Twilight World, I'm certain of that much. Arthur's ultimate fate is being Damned For All Time. Mother Time sings There On The Battlefield. Lots of little lyrical and melodical callbacks to previous songs... Maybe I'm just reaching, but when I listen to this album, it feels like a culmination of everything, not just a sequel to Imaginations.

OmegaSlayer
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#38 Post by OmegaSlayer » 06 Feb 2015 21:18

starschwar wrote:While I can't point to all the specific examples, I get the feeling that this album is intended to connect a lot of of BG's work, in some form or another. Discordia's sun and stars vanish after the Nine are sealed. It is the Twilight World, I'm certain of that much. Arthur's ultimate fate is being Damned For All Time. Mother Time sings There On The Battlefield. Lots of little lyrical and melodical callbacks to previous songs... Maybe I'm just reaching, but when I listen to this album, it feels like a culmination of everything, not just a sequel to Imaginations.
I totally feel the same and want to point out this
The realm's bleeding
It suffers -
Old and weak

No further arguing
There is war at hand
The system's failing
Engine's running

Then after all
I sense the end is dawning
These lunatics deny the truth

I know I will not fail
There'll be
War
It's now or never
We shall stand together
One by one
This world is sacred
I'm coming home
War
It's now or never
We shall stand together
One by one
This world is sacred
I'm coming home

Coming home

You chase in twilight
And you know
You will be on your own
On your own

The misery shown
I'll be alone in this hour
I face the unknown
Witness the end

I'm bleeding,I'm fading
Here in my final hour
When long lost memories return
And a voice keeps calling
"All dead and gone
It's out of hand
Life is in motion"
I'm wishing,I'm fading
"Time to wake up
Face the truth"

I'm sinking
I'm drowning
There's no doubt and no regret
"Time to reveal now"
This is no illusion

It is real
Carry on the flame
It's not over now
Watch me,I will rise
Time to reveal now

I know I will not fail
Anymore

I'm the one forever
All that really matters
Blessed realm
This world is sacred
I'm coming home
War
It's now or never
We shall stand together
One by one this world is sacred
I'm coming home

Yesterday's gone
There's no today,no tomorrow
I'm raised from the dead
The ritual failed

There at the gates
I'm left alone in this hour
Driven insane
I am left alone

And now I drown in deepest shadows
While the golden hall is sealed
I'm wishing
I'm fading
And I'm part of the machine
My eyes are the eyes of a dead man
And feel the unholy stream

The source of my power
T-energy
I'm in control

I will live forever
All that really matters
I'm the one
This world is sacred
I'm coming home
War
It's now or never
We shall stand together
One by one
This world is sacred
I'm coming home

I spread my wings
But keep on falling
I should have Known
I can see it coming
The war is over
There's whispering in the wind
Just let me out of here
There is no way
There's no end
While all the suffering goes on
All that I know
Is that I'm not insane
It's not over

blindgfan
Posts: 108
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#39 Post by blindgfan » 06 Feb 2015 22:22

starschwar wrote:Another listen done, and I have some new thoughts.

As others have surmised, the animals are indeed the Nine. That flew over my head, initially. Their true forms remain a mystery, but the communicate beyond their prison in the form of animals. Considering Mordred wanted to "delete the crow", I wouldn't be surprised if these are some sort of mechanical proxies. Golems, robots, what have you.

"Here and Now" is, as has been said, the world in which Arthur dwells. I still like to think that it was originally our world, altered through the time travel Caesar used to secure power.

The way I see it, Arthur is the offspring of Time and Space. Moreover, Time, Space, Fire, Void, etc. are a more powerful order of gods (Titans, etc). The Crow and the others of the Nine had betrayed these elder gods, banishing Time and Space between the worlds, and imprisoning Fire behind the Red Mirror. It is through their mastery of fire that they ruled Discordia. The Crow, however, has another agenda, secret from his fellows.

The person Arthur saw behind the mirror in Imaginations was The Bear, who is Discordia's version of himself. Another Stranger (Him), if you will. The Nine (or was it Ten at that point?) required an Arthur - it didn't matter which - to sacrifice him for some vital task. I want to say that the sacrifice is what bound Fire beyond the mirror in the first place. As the Arthur of Here and Now declined, the Nine conspired to sacrifice The Bear in his stead. They may or may not have manipulated Mordred to perform the sacrifice - I'm not sure of that. Regardless, this began their downfall. Mordred, son of The Bear, the Fallen Son, swore revenge. He intended to seal the Nine away forever, and extinguish them, freeing Discordia of their influence.

Arthur's last temptation, Xanadu, isn't just his own, personal salvation. I think Mordred is offering him an alternative. Should they join forces, he suggests that he might save the Here and Now, liberating it from Caesar, and his world religion. Essentially, Mordred wants Arthur to follow in his footsteps, freeing his father's doppleganger's world from the tyranny of theocracy. Arthur refuses, and takes the grail through the mirror.

Fire is set free. I don't think this is a cataclysmic event so much as a representation of the power the people of Discorida now wield. They are are equal footing with their former rulers, possessing knowledge that they can use to decide their own destiny. But perhaps, that is too much power for mortals, and the cycle will continue. This is The Crow's true aspiration - assuring the continued violence.


And Arthur? Mordred curses his bloodline, dooming them to walk a similar fate. What will become of the Mordred of the Here and Now, I wonder?
Reminds me of Avatar

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warchanter
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#40 Post by warchanter » 07 Feb 2015 01:32

OmegaSlayer wrote:
I totally feel the same and want to point out this
The realm's bleeding
It suffers -
Old and weak [...]
T-energy and the story of Sacred Worlds is about the videogame Sacred 2. The story here is told through the eyes of the dead soldier that comes to life again thanks to t-energy.
But I am just nitpicking, I know

starschwar
Posts: 16
Joined: 05 Feb 2015 06:27

Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#41 Post by starschwar » 07 Feb 2015 08:05

In The Ninth Wave, there's a very peculiar lyric that's been bugging me since my first listen.

"File 664".

That's a very interesting number, isn't it? Two away from being one of increased significance, at least in some circles. At the end of the story, in Doom, it would appear that all that lies beyond the Red Mirror, in the Void, damned and trapped forever are Arthur and Mordred. Exactly two occupants. 664 + 2? And, based on the artwork, their entry is wreathed in fire. I wonder... is this depicting the creation of a devil for Discordia by merging the two? Mordred opposed the gods of his world, Arthur despised the religion of his own. Was this the Crow's ultimate goal? Creating a force to serve as the antithesis, the villain to justify the reign of the Nine?

RandomName
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#42 Post by RandomName » 07 Feb 2015 08:40

starschwar wrote:In The Ninth Wave, there's a very peculiar lyric that's been bugging me since my first listen.

"File 664".

That's a very interesting number, isn't it? Two away from being one of increased significance, at least in some circles. At the end of the story, in Doom, it would appear that all that lies beyond the Red Mirror, in the Void, damned and trapped forever are Arthur and Mordred. Exactly two occupants. 664 + 2? And, based on the artwork, their entry is wreathed in fire. I wonder... is this depicting the creation of a devil for Discordia by merging the two? Mordred opposed the gods of his world, Arthur despised the religion of his own. Was this the Crow's ultimate goal? Creating a force to serve as the antithesis, the villain to justify the reign of the Nine?
Come on, 664 is just a code describing what is allowed to do with the file. Googling before fantasizing is a highly recommended habit :D

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Warmoth
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Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#43 Post by Warmoth » 07 Feb 2015 09:25

OK dudes, I'm on some crazy interpretive tangents, not really abut the story. Bear with me

Regarding the Separate Earbook "Strictly Confidential" slip.
It's clearly Hansi talking about this album/earbook. Sort of a behind the scenes/making of and his after thoughts.
The Crow (in this slip, not in the album story)= Inspiration/Ideas/and even Hansi himself perhaps.

He mentions the crow came to him in 2013 October to tell him the boys name would be Arthur. Is this the real life timeline of when the lyrics started being written?
The Crow doesn't give him detailed explanations.

Hansi goes on and tells how he built the story up, he decided who the character would be (Arthur), and what exactly happened long ago at the mirror. and the consequences of those actions.
After he outlines the fate of the "here and now" the Crows reactions is "impolite to say the least" lol. He was stumped as to where to go from there.

He said he's known the Crow for a dogs life (referencing the age of the band maybe, though that'd be a really old dog)
Shortly after the Fox and the hare stepped into his life he met the crow....(Andre and Marcus?) Hansi became the Crow.
Fox and the hare disrupted the crows plans. Life plans? (Being in a band altered Hansi's future IRL) "A vague notion of this still exists in my mind, but that has nothing to do with Beyond the red Mirror"

He goes on to talk about the Toad and how the Crow led him to the betrayal story arc with the Toad, then he mentions, the Crow is blind. (He has no idea where his ideas will lead)
He says some stuff about the Crow and names that I'm not totally sure about, then he says there's not certain fate for anyone after the last events at the mirror. But all the walls come tumbling down, for sure. The crow will figure it out eventually

He talks about what the 9 actually are. Then the time has come (to write the rest of the album) and the Crow doesn't speak anymore. "Do I have any idea what has happened beyond the mirror?"
"At a certain point I have to guess, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. I've been worrying about this for far too long and the silence is driving me insane"

"Something must have pissed off the crow. So he doesn't know everything" "His disappearance must have something to do with the boys name"
The chosen one had to be "Arthur" (even if it difficult to write an ending).

"November 18" section he talks about how pretty much he wishes he had a better end, but the Crow was gone for now. he had done enough "guessing" But the crow will Return!
He says "Almost nothing was cleared up for good"
He says in the end Mother time was the only one who succeeded. (Real life deadline for an album?) tribute was paid to her ever greedy sister (nuclearblast? lol)

I thought that was kind of entertaining. Maybe Toad the betrayer is Thomen? :lol: :lol:
Hopefully I'm not the only one who read this slip as straight up part of the story in some odd way even though I knew it was Hansi's POV

OmegaSlayer
Posts: 235
Joined: 14 Dec 2014 10:05

Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#44 Post by OmegaSlayer » 07 Feb 2015 11:19

Warmoth wrote:OK dudes, I'm on some crazy interpretive tangents, not really abut the story. Bear with me

Regarding the Separate Earbook "Strictly Confidential" slip.
It's clearly Hansi talking about this album/earbook. Sort of a behind the scenes/making of and his after thoughts.
The Crow (in this slip, not in the album story)= Inspiration/Ideas/and even Hansi himself perhaps.

He mentions the crow came to him in 2013 October to tell him the boys name would be Arthur. Is this the real life timeline of when the lyrics started being written?
The Crow doesn't give him detailed explanations.

Hansi goes on and tells how he built the story up, he decided who the character would be (Arthur), and what exactly happened long ago at the mirror. and the consequences of those actions.
After he outlines the fate of the "here and now" the Crows reactions is "impolite to say the least" lol. He was stumped as to where to go from there.

He said he's known the Crow for a dogs life (referencing the age of the band maybe, though that'd be a really old dog)
Shortly after the Fox and the hare stepped into his life he met the crow....(Andre and Marcus?) Hansi became the Crow.
Fox and the hare disrupted the crows plans. Life plans? (Being in a band altered Hansi's future IRL) "A vague notion of this still exists in my mind, but that has nothing to do with Beyond the red Mirror"

He goes on to talk about the Toad and how the Crow led him to the betrayal story arc with the Toad, then he mentions, the Crow is blind. (He has no idea where his ideas will lead)
He says some stuff about the Crow and names that I'm not totally sure about, then he says there's not certain fate for anyone after the last events at the mirror. But all the walls come tumbling down, for sure. The crow will figure it out eventually

He talks about what the 9 actually are. Then the time has come (to write the rest of the album) and the Crow doesn't speak anymore. "Do I have any idea what has happened beyond the mirror?"
"At a certain point I have to guess, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. I've been worrying about this for far too long and the silence is driving me insane"

"Something must have pissed off the crow. So he doesn't know everything" "His disappearance must have something to do with the boys name"
The chosen one had to be "Arthur" (even if it difficult to write an ending).

"November 18" section he talks about how pretty much he wishes he had a better end, but the Crow was gone for now. he had done enough "guessing" But the crow will Return!
He says "Almost nothing was cleared up for good"
He says in the end Mother time was the only one who succeeded. (Real life deadline for an album?) tribute was paid to her ever greedy sister (nuclearblast? lol)

I thought that was kind of entertaining. Maybe Toad the betrayer is Thomen? :lol: :lol:
Hopefully I'm not the only one who read this slip as straight up part of the story in some odd way even though I knew it was Hansi's POV
Image

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Warmoth
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Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#45 Post by Warmoth » 08 Feb 2015 06:38

Regarding "File 664"

From what I've quickly studied, the 3 digits represent permissions for different people viewing a file. First digit, The Owner of the file, 2nd - the file group, 3rd - everyone else.
The possible permissions include, Read only permission - 4, Write only permission - 2, and Execute permission -1

To allow someone to read only there would be a 4, read and write permission would be 4 + 2 = 6. Etc, any combination of these. Another common permission code is 775.

So....

Beyond the mirror, Mordred is the owner. He can read and write, (He's pretty much in control). The 9 are the group, they too can read and write. (They have some power there as well)
Everyone else viewing the "file" or whatever, would be Arthur from the other side of the mirror. He can only witness whats happening... or read only.

So saying 664 would be an extremely cryptic way of saying Arthur can't do shit. The next few lines are about Arthur. "The ingenious knight know's its over he no longer denies there's a real me."
Initially in "And the story ends" I think Arthur was scared of what he saw in the mirror. "Someone else too, Reflected cruel part of your soul" He saw an evil version of himself. He didn't want to believe existed.

Interesting, but I doubt Hansi is a Linux Geek.

..I've been trying to interpret different parts of the Album in various ways. Some ideas I have are contradictory. I've got some theories about whats' going on, but I'm not totally sold on anything for sure yet

starschwar
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#46 Post by starschwar » 09 Feb 2015 04:26

Thank you, Warmoth! I have only the slightest passing familiarity with Linux, so your insight is much appreciated. Rather than looking for cryptic clues in the lyrics, this latest listen I tried to just focus on the big picture, to piece together the exact sequence of events being portrayed. I feel pretty comfortable with this interpretation, but as always, it's subject to change. Kudos to Hansi and the rest for finding just the right balance between intentional ambiguity and storytelling. Enough to keep you speculating, but not so vague as to have no idea what the songs are actually about. Okay, here's my latest stab at it.


The Ninth Wave: Mordred summons his followers, rallying them to the Promised Land, which is the gathering place of the Nine. He promises his supporters that they shall be the new gods (perhaps figuratively in the sense that mortals will be the dominant force in Discordia?). He intends to bring about the Ninth Wave, an event that will exterminate the Nine once and for all. However, there is fear that this event will be apocalyptic. There are several references to drowning, in this song and later in the album. I think one could interpret the Ninth Wave as being a massive flood - or a Storm, if you will.


Twilight of the Gods: Mordred has captured the Nine - or the ones that weren't killed or escaped, at the very least. They are sealed away between Discordia and The Here and Now, where they suffer, burning and bleeding. It isn't enough to finish them off, but their influence on Discordia is now nil. Along with their removal, the sun and stars have vanished. I want to say that they are literally trapped inside the Red Mirror, along with the embodiment of Fire (hence the burning) but I'm not positive.


Prophecies: The Nine, while essentially powerless, are not without some recourse. They are able to contact Arthur in the Here and Now. He refused to aid them by jumping through a different mirror to Discordia, long before Mordred had sealed all but the Red Mirror. It is now that they reveal to Arthur his true nature and destiny. The offspring of Time and Space, he alone can free them. By bringing the Holy Grail through the Red Mirror, the Nine will be free. Arthur feels intense guilt - he is led to believe (perhaps rightly) that, had he jumped through the mirror, none of this would have happened. The exact result of that action in that time still isn't clear to me, however.


At the Edge of Time: Arthur searches for both the grail and the Red Mirror, hopping between dimensions. I think he's passing through the sealed doors between the two world, exploring the limbo between them? Or it could be that his search is being conducted entirely within the Here and Now. Regardless, Arthur is now adamant in his belief that he can and will succeed. He is the chosen one, the savior of Discordia, and he -will- save the Nine. It is only then that the Red Mirror appears to him.


Ashes of Eternity: Mordred prepares to execute the Nine, while Arthur becomes weak, mortally wounded. I'm not sure if this is meant to represent physical decay from the sheer length of time this quest is taking, or if he is met by some sort of assailants. If he is not hopping between dimensions, I suspect that his wounds were inflicted by agents of Caesar, the technocratic ruler of the Here and Now. A global theocracy, merged of all religions, past and present, it would have a vested interest in preventing the Holy Grail from being taken to Discordia. Such a relic would be both well hidden and heavily guarded. At death's door, he still believes that victory is within his grasp, that his mother, Time, will intervene and save him.


Distant Memories: This is the one I'm most hazy about. The artwork's depiction of the figure looking to the Mirror isn't entirely clear to me. Could be Mordred, Void, Fear, The Crow, Space, or some other figure. The atypical purple coloration leads me to suspect that it is Space looking on, but I still don't know if he is involved in the conversation(s?) depicted. Regardless, the general gist I get is that someone is speaking to Storm from the other side of the mirror. They are convinced that the Nine, and all of Discordia are doomed to be washed away in the Ninth Wave. All as they've planned. I think.


The Holy Grail: Time resurrects Arthur, but cautions him that she will not be able to help him again. She does, however, present him with the Holy Grail. He approaches the Mirror, and announces his intentions to those listening on the other side, in Discordia.


The Throne: The people of Discordia rally around this would-be hero on the other side of the Mirror. They repent, renounce Mordred, and again embrace the rule of the Nine. Mordred attempts to appeal to them, remind them that the Nine, who supposedly were masters of Fire, in fact served Fire's goals, bringing ruin in their wake. Mordred promises that, if allowed to finish what he started, peace will come, and they will be free of the Nine forever. He believes they act not out of true loyalty, but fear of their retribution.


Sacred Mind: Fear appears before Arthur, tempting him to give up his quest, to refuse as he did twenty years before. Arthur knows that if he does this, damnation awaits him. No paradise, no salvation. He can simply pretend none of it was real and live out the rest of his life in denial, happily.

Miracle Machine: Now, this is the one I changed my opinion of the most. I originally though it was from Arthur's perspective, that the Grail was the Miracle Machine, that it would allow him to complete the quest. I now think this song is from Mordred's point of view. He fears what will come when Arthur brings the grail. Ironically, though opposed to the Gods, he longs for a miracle to save his ambitions. He instead puts his faith in science, constructing the Miracle Machine - a trap for Arthur, an anti-Grail, if you will. I think that's the golden object that he's shown holding up to the mirror in the artwork is meant to represent.


Grand Parade: The trap is sprung, and both Arthur and Mordred find themselves trapped within the Mirror. The sun is restored to Discordia, and its citizens (or possibly the Nine? Both?) are made human. They may or may not be passing through the mirror into the Here and Now? They're lining up to go -somewhere-. If the Ninth Wave was not averted, they may be seeking shelter from it in the Here and Now. Or, the Ninth Wave is prevented, and they are just leaving the Promised Land. Fire is set free from the Mirror, and is now wielded by all, not just the Nine. Free from both the dominion of the Nine and the tyrannical reign of Mordred, they shall make their own destiny. Mordred taunts Arthur that, although the Discordians had rallied against him, in the end, they only fullfilled his ultimate goal: a world free from divine rule.

Doom: Trapped within the Mirror - or, if the Ninth Wave was successful, the ruined remains of Discordia - Arthur and Mordred converse. Unable to ever escape from this sealed-off location, they are condemned to spend eternity together in this trap. Mordred curses Arthur, and his descendents, vowing revenge. He will deceive them as Arthur had himself been deceived by the Nine.

alias72
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#47 Post by alias72 » 09 Feb 2015 08:05

With regards to Distant Memories. I believe it is relatively obvious that the mirror is the orator. Furthermore I do not believe the the orator switches at all in this song. The tone remains consistent, both what is written and what is sung. The more difficult part is the observer, and I do believe now that their is an observer beyond us music lovers. The figure in the picture is masked , partially, by the glow emanating from the mirror. There are still a few feature to define him.
1: horns that curve inward slightly. Only the fallen one (Mordred) has this feature. Void has inward facing shoulder spikes in addition to straight horns however the general form of the void is vastly different. The figure before the mirror has a more conservative silhouette. The crow is also a candidate if we accept the possibility that the inward slant of the spikes is an optical illusion.
2: There are a number of small spikes along the figures shoulders. The crow lacks this feature entirely. All the rugged points on his shoulders face downward giving him a smoother silhouette. Thus by elimination the figure before the mirror is Mordred.

So the Mirror is speaking to Mordred. what of it. The Mirror is addressing the figure but the figure i not the topic. (s)he uses the word they. Wording is incredibly important. First this illustrates how the observer is not the topic. we can thus surmise that this narration is not about Mordred. Secondly the line "These fools will fade away" uses an obvious plural. It may also be argued that They is more common in the plural form. The only groups that may be referenced in the plural are people in general or the nine. There are very few points where people may be directly referenced in this album and closer inspection shows that almost no references are likely to exist (to the generalized group). I therefore conclude that the Mirror is talking to Mordred about the Nine.

If any song is not temporally consistent in this album it is likely to be this song. It MAY be the case that this is a reflective moment. This slightly complicates understanding this song in the story but I believe it to be significant to the story all the same. The song takes place before the savior calls through the mirror. The nine are either in exile or about to be executed. They call out for a savior.
"but still they don't know
They're just caught in distant memories
Then these fools will fade away
They may not fear the fall."
This would suggest that Arthur is not the savior the nine are looking for. At this point I feel I must stress the speculative nature of this interpretation. I am certain the mirror is narrating. I am almost positive Mordred is the observer. I am fairly confident that the nine are the topic, however my entire interpretation revolves around this. I believe that, though Arthur comes to save the nine, he will merely seal their fate. I believe this helps make sense of some later points.

In Miracle Machine the orator is talking to someone. The Grail is referenced. A key line is "Now let me take you to the otherside" another is "that's why I need you on the otherside". The only one we know of who is traveling anywhere is Arthur. I believe the Orator is speaking to Arthur. The topic revolves around the nine. "They are slaves to the fire you know" "betrayed by the nine". This leaves two possibilities. Either Mordred is talking to Arthur or Time. Time is present in the illustration. Furthermore Time has been betrayed by the nine; Being used as a means to achieve near immortality. Mordred also fits as he was betrayed in a similar fashion. I believe there is one line that favors time over Mordred. "that's why I need you on the otherside". This line is awkward if both parties are not at the same place. if Mordred was talking to Arthur through the Mirror the he would say "That's why I need you on this side" or something to that effect. This line works if Mordred were asking Arthur to go back to the here and now, however the rest of the song contradicts this. Ultimately I have not yet come to any conclusion about this song except that it is crucial to the plot. More than most other songs. Definitely in the top three, as it frames Arthur's intentions in the final part of the story (the one that is left open-ended.)

priderock
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#48 Post by priderock » 09 Feb 2015 12:19

starschwar wrote:Thank you, Warmoth! I have only the slightest passing familiarity with Linux, so your insight is much appreciated. Rather than looking for cryptic clues in the lyrics, this latest listen I tried to just focus on the big picture, to piece together the exact sequence of events being portrayed. I feel pretty comfortable with this interpretation, but as always, it's subject to change. Kudos to Hansi and the rest for finding just the right balance between intentional ambiguity and storytelling. Enough to keep you speculating, but not so vague as to have no idea what the songs are actually about. Okay, here's my latest stab at it.


The Ninth Wave: Mordred summons his followers, rallying them to the Promised Land, which is the gathering place of the Nine. He promises his supporters that they shall be the new gods (perhaps figuratively in the sense that mortals will be the dominant force in Discordia?). He intends to bring about the Ninth Wave, an event that will exterminate the Nine once and for all. However, there is fear that this event will be apocalyptic. There are several references to drowning, in this song and later in the album. I think one could interpret the Ninth Wave as being a massive flood - or a Storm, if you will.


Twilight of the Gods: Mordred has captured the Nine - or the ones that weren't killed or escaped, at the very least. They are sealed away between Discordia and The Here and Now, where they suffer, burning and bleeding. It isn't enough to finish them off, but their influence on Discordia is now nil. Along with their removal, the sun and stars have vanished. I want to say that they are literally trapped inside the Red Mirror, along with the embodiment of Fire (hence the burning) but I'm not positive.


Prophecies: The Nine, while essentially powerless, are not without some recourse. They are able to contact Arthur in the Here and Now. He refused to aid them by jumping through a different mirror to Discordia, long before Mordred had sealed all but the Red Mirror. It is now that they reveal to Arthur his true nature and destiny. The offspring of Time and Space, he alone can free them. By bringing the Holy Grail through the Red Mirror, the Nine will be free. Arthur feels intense guilt - he is led to believe (perhaps rightly) that, had he jumped through the mirror, none of this would have happened. The exact result of that action in that time still isn't clear to me, however.


At the Edge of Time: Arthur searches for both the grail and the Red Mirror, hopping between dimensions. I think he's passing through the sealed doors between the two world, exploring the limbo between them? Or it could be that his search is being conducted entirely within the Here and Now. Regardless, Arthur is now adamant in his belief that he can and will succeed. He is the chosen one, the savior of Discordia, and he -will- save the Nine. It is only then that the Red Mirror appears to him.


Ashes of Eternity: Mordred prepares to execute the Nine, while Arthur becomes weak, mortally wounded. I'm not sure if this is meant to represent physical decay from the sheer length of time this quest is taking, or if he is met by some sort of assailants. If he is not hopping between dimensions, I suspect that his wounds were inflicted by agents of Caesar, the technocratic ruler of the Here and Now. A global theocracy, merged of all religions, past and present, it would have a vested interest in preventing the Holy Grail from being taken to Discordia. Such a relic would be both well hidden and heavily guarded. At death's door, he still believes that victory is within his grasp, that his mother, Time, will intervene and save him.


Distant Memories: This is the one I'm most hazy about. The artwork's depiction of the figure looking to the Mirror isn't entirely clear to me. Could be Mordred, Void, Fear, The Crow, Space, or some other figure. The atypical purple coloration leads me to suspect that it is Space looking on, but I still don't know if he is involved in the conversation(s?) depicted. Regardless, the general gist I get is that someone is speaking to Storm from the other side of the mirror. They are convinced that the Nine, and all of Discordia are doomed to be washed away in the Ninth Wave. All as they've planned. I think.


The Holy Grail: Time resurrects Arthur, but cautions him that she will not be able to help him again. She does, however, present him with the Holy Grail. He approaches the Mirror, and announces his intentions to those listening on the other side, in Discordia.


The Throne: The people of Discordia rally around this would-be hero on the other side of the Mirror. They repent, renounce Mordred, and again embrace the rule of the Nine. Mordred attempts to appeal to them, remind them that the Nine, who supposedly were masters of Fire, in fact served Fire's goals, bringing ruin in their wake. Mordred promises that, if allowed to finish what he started, peace will come, and they will be free of the Nine forever. He believes they act not out of true loyalty, but fear of their retribution.


Sacred Mind: Fear appears before Arthur, tempting him to give up his quest, to refuse as he did twenty years before. Arthur knows that if he does this, damnation awaits him. No paradise, no salvation. He can simply pretend none of it was real and live out the rest of his life in denial, happily.

Miracle Machine: Now, this is the one I changed my opinion of the most. I originally though it was from Arthur's perspective, that the Grail was the Miracle Machine, that it would allow him to complete the quest. I now think this song is from Mordred's point of view. He fears what will come when Arthur brings the grail. Ironically, though opposed to the Gods, he longs for a miracle to save his ambitions. He instead puts his faith in science, constructing the Miracle Machine - a trap for Arthur, an anti-Grail, if you will. I think that's the golden object that he's shown holding up to the mirror in the artwork is meant to represent.


Grand Parade: The trap is sprung, and both Arthur and Mordred find themselves trapped within the Mirror. The sun is restored to Discordia, and its citizens (or possibly the Nine? Both?) are made human. They may or may not be passing through the mirror into the Here and Now? They're lining up to go -somewhere-. If the Ninth Wave was not averted, they may be seeking shelter from it in the Here and Now. Or, the Ninth Wave is prevented, and they are just leaving the Promised Land. Fire is set free from the Mirror, and is now wielded by all, not just the Nine. Free from both the dominion of the Nine and the tyrannical reign of Mordred, they shall make their own destiny. Mordred taunts Arthur that, although the Discordians had rallied against him, in the end, they only fullfilled his ultimate goal: a world free from divine rule.

Doom: Trapped within the Mirror - or, if the Ninth Wave was successful, the ruined remains of Discordia - Arthur and Mordred converse. Unable to ever escape from this sealed-off location, they are condemned to spend eternity together in this trap. Mordred curses Arthur, and his descendents, vowing revenge. He will deceive them as Arthur had himself been deceived by the Nine.
According to what Hansi said, that the creatures in the story are supporting the religion and he also things that it's a good thing, I think that the end of Grand Parade is absolutely not presenting a world without a divine power/rules or whatever...the final lines("No more Gods") and the symbolic of "The Holy Grail" makes me think that the the whole concept represents a world without Gods and no more false religions.., but instead of that Only One God! That's what makes sense at the end..,especially with the Grail :? :wink: What do you guys think ?
Anyway, thank you for your hard work..

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Warmoth
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Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#49 Post by Warmoth » 09 Feb 2015 22:30

Some good write ups in here.

I'm working on a wall of text, but I don't have the earbook in front of me. I'll try to get something posted later

starschwar
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Joined: 05 Feb 2015 06:27

Re: Beyond The Red Mirror - The Story

#50 Post by starschwar » 10 Feb 2015 03:29

Another thought: Are there some Matrix allusions in here? Granted, both works are heavy on the Through the Looking Glass homage, but I can't help but wonder...



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The Crow, whose true name is...



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Storm.


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A red gateway to another world, through which a chosen one must go...

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