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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 14:57
by Raistlin Majere
You will see that there is a lot of time till christmas.... :mrgreen:
I will prevail!!!!
(In such moments I feel that there are no emoticons to describe me....
It is only me... and mr. green...)

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 14:58
by Mackasfour
why you wanna take away my only thing? :cry:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 14:59
by Raistlin Majere
haha... got the page in this thread too... :mrgreen:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 14:59
by Mackasfour
want a medal?

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:01
by Raistlin Majere
sure!

A nobel prize would be fine too... 8)

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:03
by Mackasfour
They seem to be handing those out for no reason so why not.... but the medal, sorry fresh out

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:05
by Raistlin Majere
well, it will be the first time that it will be worth it...
There are the anti-nobels too, you know

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:16
by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme
Raistlin Majere wrote:
It depends on the object in quaestion, consider us to have a cuboid like this one, and let's say that the value of the length l(t) is a function dependent on time. Let's make it l(t) = sin (2pi t) + 1.5 or a sine that moves between 0.5 and 2.5. Let's say the other dimensions are fixed at 1.5 for simplicity's sake. Effectively I just created a mathematical description of a cuboid that stretches in and out through time like an accordion
Now at some points in time (1,3,5,7...) the length will be 1.5, at those points we have a cube, the cube exists instantaneously as as we move time ahead or back, it's not a cube any more.
However, the cuboid exists infinitely and continuously, as for all times, the form we have still meets the definition of a cuboid. But not of a cube.
It's still the same object. It only changes shape in time... But having memory of itself, continues being the first cube. It probably kept the "I" in it while changing....and added something in this "I" each moment that it change.
It's at least not a cube any more.

Also, what if I replace the cube with another at each instant? According to many physical models of time this is what actually happens, you don't notice a difference. This is also what happens with you?

If you define 'memory' as 'I', as I noted before. Then, as memory is information and thus can be copied and theoretically multiple people could receive identical memory via implantation, you negate your own proposiion that the 'I' is unique.

So in the end, no matter how you keep defining you 'I', it leads to contradictions. It doesn't exist I'm afraid, it's an illusion induced by memory storage. Each corporal instant in time is a different entity that just feels 'connected' some how to some random others as it has their memories.
If we had two cube, each one would have its own "I"
Both would change but would have memory of themselves, thus only adding to their "I"s and never removing from them...Changing cause of experiences as time passes... Resulting in new "I"s that are the continual of the start, but still define them the same as the first "I", and keep them different from each other..
Again, how do you keep the two cubes apart. Suppose we have two cubes and at a next instant again two cubes at different places, if time is continuous you can trace their paths so you know which was which. If time is discrete you cannot and there's no way to tell and the quaestion does not have a sensible answer.

But that still does not resolve the quaestion that I asked you to 'define' the 'I' in properties or elements, and then prove it exists. Which you still have not done so, you'r e just stated by assertion that all elements have this 'I'.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:20
by Mackasfour
He's back

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:24
by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme
You sexist.

I was on the phone actually, got called, having conversations on IRC with one hand is one thing, this is quite another.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:29
by Raistlin Majere
But that still does not resolve the quaestion that I asked you to 'define' the 'I' in properties or elements, and then prove it exists. Which you still have not done so, you'r e just stated by assertion that all elements have this 'I'.
I stated previously that the qualities that in my opinion make the "I" are different in each thing they describe. Since the memory remains, you are not a new "I" each time that you change....
Therefore the "I" is what you are summing up all the things that defined you and keep defining you. They are the reason that you make a decision or not.. The reason why you think that there is no "I" and that I think there is one... It's what you do/think (cause it will be added up in your personality - will become past) and the reasons why you do it (is past).
The "I" is a character, that is rarely changing a lot..
In your example, think that the cube has enormous dimensions, while it changes in very small portions. That means that in order to see that it changed, you have to be very close to the cube.
Now, look at your personality.. Your "I". There are not many things that can change you from one day to the other... Something that is harsh for your mind to accept and keep you as you are... The "I" are the things that define your character, and are different in each person, but if you take 10-40 persons, you will have the properties you ask. What you won't have is the portion of each property that affects each person. In order to see the properties that affect your personality and therefore define you as an "I", you should be a good judge of yourself, and take a very good look at what can change/has changed a lot your personality and why.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:29
by Raistlin Majere
I just realized that I could be a philosopher... or maybe a politician in my previous life :lol:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:32
by Raistlin Majere
-- >See? I can always return on topic.. That is what makes a good spammer... :)

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:34
by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme
Raistlin Majere wrote:
But that still does not resolve the quaestion that I asked you to 'define' the 'I' in properties or elements, and then prove it exists. Which you still have not done so, you'r e just stated by assertion that all elements have this 'I'.
I stated previously that the qualities that in my opinion make the "I" are different in each thing they describe. Since the memory remains, you are not a new "I" each time that you change....
Therefore the "I" is what you are summing up all the things that defined you and keep defining you. They are the reason that you make a decision or not.. The reason why you think that there is no "I" and that I think there is one... It's what you do/think (cause it will be added up in your personality - will become past) and the reasons why you do it (is past).
The "I" is a character, that is rarely changing a lot..
Okay, now prove to me that this exists. Let us change 'rarely' to 'never' because 'rarely' again invalidates the entire definition as it's vague.

Demonstrate to me that there is some immutable unchanging core of people, for I am a sceptic to its existence.

In your example, think that the cube has enormous dimensions, while it changes in very small portions. That means that in order to see that it changed, you have to be very close to the cube.
I don't think I understand this.

Now, look at your personality.. Your "I". There are not many things that can change you from one day to the other... Something that is harsh for your mind to accept and keep you as you are... The "I" are the things that define your character, and are different in each person, but if you take 10-40 persons, you will have the properties you ask. What you won't have is the portion of each property that affects each person. In order to see the properties that affect your personality and therefore define you as an "I", you should be a good judge of yourself, and take a very good look at what can change/has changed a lot your personality and why.
Well, 'rarely' or 'little' is not part of a definition, then it changes or it doesn't, unless you have a unit for change of personality and can say 'under this margin it is not a big change', you have to keep to no change at all.

So, prove to me that there are immutable unchanging elements in people that meet your definition of 'I'.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:40
by Mackasfour
I am gonna go through and read this thread when I am not so tired

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:51
by Raistlin Majere
I'll attempt to give a final definition cause I'll have to go in while...

"I" is the thing that can be understood, but cannot be described (at least in some words)
In order to know what "I" means, you need to have self-consciousness, and self-knowledge
"I" defines persons
"I" is not a fixed parameter, but it changes due to the environment of a person
The person defined by his "I", can identify changes to his "I" but considers them part of his first "I" and not a new "I" of himself.
"I" has to do with spiritual qualities mostly, that are also used to define the personality of a person


--
PS1. I'll attempt to describe what now seems indescribable, tomorrow...
PS2. I'll once again change my sig.... after this mind-trouble. This whole conversation really changed my "I"... I need to rest... :lol:
PS3. I must have been a philosopher once.. Otherwise it can't be explained...


---------------
"I" am the lawyer of the "I"
I can keep speaking nonsense and still make sense....
That's me... That's "I"

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 15:54
by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme
Raistlin Majere wrote:I'll attempt to give a final definition cause I'll have to go in while...

"I" is the thing that can be understood, but cannot be described (at least in some words)
In order to know what "I" means, you need to have self-consciousness, and self-knowledge
"I" defines persons
"I" is not a fixed parameter, but it changes due to the environment of a person
The person defined by his "I", can identify changes to his "I" but considers them part of his first "I" and not a new "I" of himself.
"I" has to do with spiritual qualities mostly, that are also used to define the personality of a person
Well, your first and last hint of that it's not a scientific concept per se but a human made-up construct to experience the world like? That's where I'm heading at.

It doesn't actually 'exist', it's just an abstraction humans use to relate and interpret.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 16:00
by Raistlin Majere
I'm sure that anyone who reads the above posts will make a good laugh... :mrgreen:

How can there be no "I" if despite the fact that there is no "I", "I" can still get there is.... :?:

That is something we will talk about in our next psychology lesson.... :lol:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 16:04
by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme
Raistlin Majere wrote:I'm sure that anyone who reads the above posts will make a good laugh... :mrgreen:

How can there be no "I" if despite the fact that there is no "I", "I" can still get there is.... :?:
Circular reasoning.

You claim that it is an 'I' that gets it. I claim that it is some thing completely else or maybe nothing at all.

Also, the debate was about the continuation of said 'I' through time, if it exists instantaneously, it can still get things possible. So your argument is fallacious either way.
Raistlin Majere wrote:That is something we will talk about in our next psychology lesson.... :lol:
Damnit Smithers, this isn't psychology, it's physics.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 18:04
by Frozen within
I'd love to come back as a big stack of hey, and I'd like it if yo momma was thrown on me then.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 20:32
by Orodaran
I know nothing about philosophy and indu religions and stuff, but I'd say that "I" is the one I see in the mirror and recognize as such, I am I because I am self aware that I exist as a single and unique entity... how many animals can recognize themselves in the mirror? dolphins or whales maybe?

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 12 Oct 2009 21:38
by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme
Orodaran wrote:I know nothing about philosophy and indu religions and stuff, but I'd say that "I" is the one I see in the mirror and recognize as such, I am I because I am self aware that I exist as a single and unique entity... how many animals can recognize themselves in the mirror? dolphins or whales maybe?
The critical point on the mirror test is however that you can't know if humans could recognise themselves if they weren't taught how they look themselves.

Also, it implies nothing of 'self-aware', it's a stupid test and criterion, the point is that humans are a species that unlikely most species have 'mental spatiality', they at all times have a picture in their mind of where all their limbs et cetera are located, it's just a sense that helps with toolcrafting and says little about how 'self aware' humans are. A lot of other animals have limbs that move rather autonomously and they have to see their own limbs to know where they are.

So this is also a major advantage humans have in recognising 'themselves' in the mirror, as it becomes quite easy for them then to see that the other person there copies their every move.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 13 Oct 2009 08:59
by t.a.j.
I would love to come back as me, if at all possible.

[Edit:] Maybe I should have read all the bad philosophy in this thread before posting. Now my joke is kind of lost...

Why don't we just accept that as a premise for reincarnation, we need to have some kind of structured persistent self - souls, mental patterns, noumenon, what have you - that can be separate from our physical body and come into the same kind of relationship it had with our body with other bodies again.

Because else, this whole game is not much fun. Hume, Husserl, Buddha and Dennet nonwithstanding.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 13 Oct 2009 09:06
by Raistlin Majere
You'd better pick something else too. Just in case... :lol:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 13 Oct 2009 09:07
by End Of An Era
t.a.j. wrote:I would love to come back as me, if at all possible.
no, not possible, i called shotgun on that spot :P

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 13:12
by Mackasfour
Raistlin Majere wrote:who @Mackasfour: He is not Hansi Smurf, cause he is a lot more clear... He has arguments and I don't think he wants to offend you..
Was being a smartass, though he could've come back in a good mood


Reincarnation is a bit of a weird one, I believe we would keep our virtues and perception on things the same but we lose memories of any former life. Maybe that's just me

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 13:29
by Raistlin Majere
At least he increased my postcounts by making me answer him :D

Don't be angry... he didn't have that a bad tone at first... But he wasn't that bad..
Was being a smartass
That's true... I have no answer to that.... :roll:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 13:32
by Mackasfour
I mean that as the explanation to him being Hansi Smurf

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 18:17
by ThePKH
t.a.j. wrote:I would love to come back as me, if at all possible.
I would love to come back as you too.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 18:41
by Lilyael
1) I think, therefore I spam
2) In tests/experiments/timewasting/etc, it was discovered that people who had violent deaths re-incarnated and remembered those deaths but not the life beforehand. This means that I can indeed re-incarnate and come back as me in my next life, but I need my head kicked in first.
3) Philosophy and life is like Groundhog Day - you keep going through the same old shit until you get it right, then you ( and the rest of us poor sods ) can move on.



the smiley says it's ok 'cos I joke.... :mrgreen:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 20:40
by End Of An Era
ThePKH wrote:
t.a.j. wrote:I would love to come back as me, if at all possible.
I would love to come back as you too.
End Of An Era wrote:
t.a.j. wrote:I would love to come back as me, if at all possible.
no, not possible, i called shotgun on that spot :P

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 20:48
by Orodaran
Lilyael wrote:2) In tests/experiments/timewasting/etc, it was discovered that people who had violent deaths re-incarnated and remembered those deaths but not the life beforehand.
Like if a computer breaks, then I put the hard disk on another unit and it shows up the same blue screen that killed the previous PC?


:P

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 14 Oct 2009 21:01
by End Of An Era
Orodaran wrote:
Lilyael wrote:2) In tests/experiments/timewasting/etc, it was discovered that people who had violent deaths re-incarnated and remembered those deaths but not the life beforehand.
Like if a computer breaks, then I put the hard disk on another unit and it shows up the same blue screen that killed the previous PC?


:P
you're confused, it's reincarnation, not Windows we're talking about :P

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 15 Oct 2009 10:39
by Lilyael
I dunno, i thought life and Windows were more or less the same thing but one has more frustration, pointless shit, expense, and death than the other one.......

Perhaps that's the point Bill Gates was trying to make, and he's pissed no-one's got it yet. :mrgreen:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 15 Oct 2009 11:45
by Raistlin Majere
Lilael wrote:This means that I can indeed re-incarnate and come back as me in my next life, but I need my head kicked in first.
--> Windows get reincarnated as themselves all the time. '95,2000,XP,Vista, soon 7..
Now I know why. :lol:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 18 Nov 2009 07:48
by Metal Fan
I would come back as who ever I come back as. I just don't care what. ;)

Edit: if I had to choose someone to come back as, I have shot-gun for Marcus's son!! :D

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 18 Nov 2009 12:32
by Andreas
I'd like to come back as myself.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 19 Nov 2009 06:53
by Metal Fan
This whole topic was weird in the first place.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 19 Nov 2009 08:37
by Mackasfour
Sorry for making a thread :P

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 19 Nov 2009 22:05
by Lilyael
actually, I'd like to come back as this forum. Full of spam.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 20 Nov 2009 06:58
by Metal Fan
I wasn't saying it was bad. Just weird. I mean, when the hell do you talk coming back as what? The whole thing sounds really crazy. No offense.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 20 Nov 2009 08:37
by Mackasfour
Metal Fan wrote:The whole thing sounds really crazy. No offense.
You obviously don't understand me then :P

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 20 Nov 2009 16:31
by Raistlin Majere
Metal Fan wrote:The whole thing sounds really crazy. No offense.
If I were you, I would select something to be reincarnated. You never know... If you don't choose you might end up something like a worm or something.... So you'd better choose now that you can. :lol:

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 21 Nov 2009 05:45
by Metal Fan
I said Marcus's son. But if it has to be something else, an angel.

Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

Posted: 23 Nov 2009 22:41
by Lilyael
One of the Nephilim. That would be cool.