Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

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Mackasfour
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Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#1 Post by Mackasfour » 10 Oct 2009 16:46

Even if you don't believe in it, if it was possible, what would you like to return to this world as?


A Gray Wolf anyday, Wolves are freakin' epic!!!
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#2 Post by Belgarion » 10 Oct 2009 17:26

Aah, Human? 8)
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#3 Post by Orodaran » 10 Oct 2009 17:30

A very rich dude with a long cock.

PS: Mackasfour, when you reincarnate in a wolf, would you mantain memory of your past lives? would you then realize "OMG it's so cool I am a wolf go me go me go me?" or you would just live your life as a wolf never knowing you were once a man that wanted to be a wolf? in that case where's the catch, it's like being tied to a dreams-scanner futuristic machine, and when I wake up a doctor tells me "dude, you dreamt about having sex with Angelina Jolie, too bad you don't remember about it"... bugger :P
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A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#4 Post by End Of An Era » 10 Oct 2009 17:37

Orodaran wrote:A very rich dude with a long cock.
so you're poor and tiny now, huh? :P
Orodaran wrote:PS: Mackasfour, when you reincarnate in a wolf, would you mantain memory of your past lives? would you then realize "OMG it's so cool I am a wolf go me go me go me?" or you would just live your life as a wolf never knowing you were once a man that wanted to be a wolf? in that case where's the catch, it's like being tied to a dreams-scanner futuristic machine, and when I wake up a doctor tells me "dude, you dreamt about having sex with Angelina Jolie, too bad you don't remember about it"... bugger :P
yup, what use is reincarnation if you don´t remember anything?
anyway, if i had a choice i'd want to reincarnate as a common household cat. ahhhh that is the life!! :P

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#5 Post by Dentarthurdent » 10 Oct 2009 20:16

oh no, not all that shit again...

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#6 Post by Mackasfour » 11 Oct 2009 03:04

Hmm, good point. But still, even if I didn't remember it, it happened. That's awesome enough, even without knowing it!
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#7 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 11 Oct 2009 05:38

some sort of stud probably
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#8 Post by Mackasfour » 11 Oct 2009 06:13

Pfft, I'm one right now :mrgreen:
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#9 Post by Bender B. Rodriguez » 11 Oct 2009 06:37

yeah,me too,i'd just like to repeat the experience,'tis been great 8)
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#10 Post by Mackasfour » 11 Oct 2009 06:40

Yeah sure :roll: :lol:
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#11 Post by Palantyre » 11 Oct 2009 09:35

A housecat. Just eat, sleep and maybe play a bit, all day long. Ahhhh, that's life.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#12 Post by Gandalf de Grijze » 11 Oct 2009 09:38

i'd come back as god: put all teh complainst and prayers on mute and unleash a virus or two and take the rest of the week off to play golf
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#13 Post by The Rider Of Rohan » 11 Oct 2009 10:25

A bra.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#14 Post by Mackasfour » 11 Oct 2009 10:39

A G-string that caters only to Women.... (that's where they get ya RoR, what if a dude wore a bra?)
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#15 Post by Orodaran » 11 Oct 2009 11:19

Gandalf de Grijze wrote:i'd come back as god: put all teh complainst and prayers on mute and unleash a virus or two and take the rest of the week off to play golf
In the quite remote possibility that there is a god, that is probably exactly what he's doing :lol: :lol:
"There's a time when a man needs to fight and a time when he needs to accept that his destiny's lost, the ship has sailed and that only a fool will continue. The truth is I've always been a fool"
~~~~~~~~~~~~
A slight call afar is tempting me, like a whisper sweet or an awful scream; I cannot ignore what I've always been, I'm leaving again - one last time? in my little kingdom I can be what I really wanted to be... The wanderer

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#16 Post by Mackasfour » 11 Oct 2009 11:28

:shock: I wonder what type of clubs he uses
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#17 Post by Lilyael » 11 Oct 2009 20:52

9 irons. Made of actual iron. :twisted:

is it possible to come back as Hansi Kursch ? Failing that, I would like to come back as a master brewer and come up with the world's best beer and gain a market monopoly on it so that gnat's piss and Foster's go out of business. :twisted:

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#18 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 11:29

Does a dragon count?? :mrgreen:

Of course if were a dragon, people would try to kill me, but then I would reincarnate again.... :twisted:
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#19 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 11:30

Into another dragon?
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#20 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 11:32

I would have to think that....
You cannot reincarnate into what you were I think... So I will have to choose something else...
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#21 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 11:33

The point about re-incarnation I never got is:

If supposedly you lose your memories in the process, you lose your body, you lose your personallity as animals have different ones. What's still left that makes it 'you'?

seems to me at best that nature or God or Shiva or what-not just re-cycles some components of 'souls' it has a limited and finite supply of.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#22 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 11:35

actually, I think you are supposed to inherit some things of your past life... reactions, some knowledge...
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#23 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 11:39

Maybe the virtues that made you you?
"How easily the mind can be turned to hate from a place of fear - an instinctive, natural, protective response. Instead of focusing on the things that unite us, we focus on what divides us."

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#24 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 12:04

Raistlin Majere wrote:actually, I think you are supposed to inherit some things of your past life... reactions, some knowledge...
What do you or most Hindus remember of their past life as snail?
Mackasfour wrote:Maybe the virtues that made you you?
My handsomely gorgeous facial features if I become a D. melanogaster.

Or maybe my intelligence? in said fruit fly?

Or my spiffing way with words?

What about my vices, does the fruit fly also gain my reckless behaviour of knifing up prostitutes?
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#25 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 12:07

Well you're not up yourself at all :D
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#26 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 12:07

What do you or most Hindus remember of their past life as snail?
I'm not a hindu, but as far as I know about those who believe in reincarnation, you get some experiences...
In my opinion there is no reincarnation, and probably no heaven nor hell...
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#27 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 12:09

Maybe in my next life I'll be a hamster. Pointlessly running in a wheel all day...But children will laugh seeing me doing so... :D
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#28 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 12:16

Raistlin Majere wrote:
What do you or most Hindus remember of their past life as snail?
I'm not a hindu, but as far as I know about those who believe in reincarnation, you get some experiences...
In my opinion there is no reincarnation, and probably no heaven nor hell...
To be honest, I'm more sceptical to the existence of 'I', than most people. If supposedly every 18 years safe for few atoms every atom in your body is replaced? What would this 'I' be then?

It's pretty shattered around isn't it?

But don't worry, for Commander Spock has the answer:

Image
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#29 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 12:23

If I is not the atoms, but the organism, then there is no question.
Your functions/thoughts remain...
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#30 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 12:28

Commander Spock recommends a website?
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#31 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 12:34

Raistlin Majere wrote:If I is not the atoms, but the organism, then there is no question.
Your functions/thoughts remain...
Nope? Your taste changes with the years, as does your personality, your taste in music even, for food, your type of humour.

You may think that 'you' 14 years back was 'you' too, but if you really compared both there's not much to say that it's the same entity left.

Also, your memories stay. But memories are also subject to elision, erosion and can to a limited extend be artificially induced. Per thought experiment, if I had some means to give you my childhood memories, would my 13 year old counterpart be a younger version of you then?

No matter how you define it, the concept of 'I' pretty much falls apart and at max only exists instantaneously. And then there's still the quaestions of:

- Does my blood plasma and hair belong to me, it's not alive after all. Then some would say 'yes' because I made it / cannot live without it, and some would say 'no'.
- Then you can ask yourself if the oxygen in your lungs does? After all, you can't live without it either and you partly made it?

The 'I' is a lie, it doesn't exist, the universe is just one giant clockwork and it can't just easy be divided into objects that make sense for people. Concepts like 'I' or 'tree' or other entities are just some mental image humans have created to operate in this world and are at best a very crude approximation, for such a fruitfly, you're pretty much part of the couch you sit on and so are the clothes you wear.
Mackasfour wrote:Commander Spock recommends a website?
It was an image about a katra, but the server hates me it seems.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#32 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 12:38

Them too eh??? jkz :P You aren't by any chance Hansi Smurf yeah?
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#33 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 12:48

Mackasfour wrote:Them too eh??? jkz :P You aren't by any chance Hansi Smurf yeah?
Nope, not really. Never heard of it.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#34 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 12:57

I thought he was a bit strange at first to but he is no it, just likes to insult people with his posts... You aren't I know, but the style of writing is similar
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#35 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 13:00

who is katra?

@Mackasfour: He is not Hansi Smurf, cause he is a lot more clear... He has arguments and I don't think he wants to offend you..
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#36 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 13:04

Nope? Your taste changes with the years, as does your personality, your taste in music even, for food, your type of humour.
All these don't stop you from being you... Maybe the adding of experiences, such as new music, new food... your boredom of doing/eating/listening to the same thing, makes you change your taste... You are growing up and thinking differently.. That's a sum up of what you are.. Therefore "I" does exist
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#37 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 13:07

Mackasfour wrote:I thought he was a bit strange at first to but he is no it, just likes to insult people with his posts... You aren't I know, but the style of writing is similar
I invariably end up at doing that at people's perception because I have some 'unconventional ideas' about the nature of morality.
Raistlin Majere wrote:who is katra?
From Star Trek, a Katra is the supposed essence of a Vulcan that can be transferred to another person. Though that person will keep all old memories it has a new essence and combines that to a new personality then.

It was a stupid deus-ex-machina idea that was invented in 'The Search of Spock', or actually planted before that but it provided a nice means to resurrect him by placing his Katra in a cloned body.
Raistlin Majere wrote:
Nope? Your taste changes with the years, as does your personality, your taste in music even, for food, your type of humour.
All these don't stop you from being you... Maybe the adding of experiences, such as new music, new food... your boredom of doing/eating/listening to the same thing, makes you change your taste... You are growing up and thinking differently.. That's a sum up of what you are.. Therefore "I" does exist
What property does define the 'I' then? All the properties you gave I have been able to show of that they change, all the elements you gave I have shown to be exchanged.

Name me one immutable consistent property or element of this supposed 'I' that stays consistent throughout one's lifetime.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#38 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 13:12

"I" doesn't stop to be "I" even if it changes. It is defined by the person as a whole. It's ideas/personality/thoughts, etc. which is a result of the person's knowledge, characteristics, way of thinking, etc.
I see "I" as the personality of a person, which is always different among people... It's experiences change his way of thinking, and probably in reincarnation could define the wanna-be of that person..
"I" is not supposed to be fixed and unchangeable, and that is what makes it unique.
An atom, if unchanged and not part of an organism is the same as all other atoms. An "I" is unique... and not unchanged.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#39 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 13:17

Palantyre wrote:A housecat. Just eat, sleep and maybe play a bit, all day long. Ahhhh, that's life.
Hello Garfield :lol:
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#40 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 13:23

Raistlin Majere wrote:"I" doesn't stop to be "I" even if it changes. It is defined by the person as a whole. It's ideas/personality/thoughts, etc. which is a result of the person's knowledge, characteristics, way of thinking, etc.
I see "I" as the personality of a person, which is always different among people... It's experiences change his way of thinking, and probably in reincarnation could define the wanna-be of that person..
"I" is not supposed to be fixed and unchangeable, and that is what makes it unique.
An atom, if unchanged and not part of an organism is the same as all other atoms. An "I" is unique... and not unchanged.
And and well but you still haven't shown me why this 'I' has a right to exist or even what it is, all you've given were circular definitions implicitly, you used 'of a person' a lot and 'a person' is synonymous with 'an I' so it's a circular definition.

I can just as much for instance apply your technique to say that that the 'qo' (just making a word up) of you, your neighbour whose grass is greener and your lawnmower is those three's collective memories, experiences, personalities, materials it composes and that it can perfectly well change and even a new lawnmower can come into the picture.

So my challenge to you is:

1: Define the 'I' in terms of properties and/or material elements without using circular constructs like 'of a person' or 'of a human' or 'mine'.
2: Demonstrate me this 'I' to exist.
"I" is not supposed to be fixed and unchangeable, and that is what makes it unique.
Also, this is a bit of a strange reasoning don 't you think? There are more things than that that aren't supposed to be fixed and unchangeable, so surely it cannot make it unique?
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#41 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 13:42

I haven't read any psychology books, but I understand "I" like this:

"I" is a group of qualities, different for each person... It's not material. Each person is a different "I".
"I" cannot be defined as "qo", "mo" or other made-up words, cause it infact indicates a personality... It is the ego ("εγώ" in greek) that makes a person think that it is different from other person. It does not equal to personality.
Personality is a group of qualities, some of them are common to many people. The "I" is the quality that mostly describes a person. The one-two things that make him take the one decision and not the other..
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#42 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 13:54

Raistlin Majere wrote:I haven't read any psychology books, but I understand "I" like this:
Psychology then again is by Popper's citeria—in principio—a pseudoscience.
Raistlin Majere wrote:"I" is a group of qualities, different for each person... It's not material. Each person is a different "I".
That's a circular definition then again, as 'person' relies on 'I', to exist. I ask of you, show me that these things called 'individuals' consist, that there is a line, and that the universe is not just some giant clockwork of particles interacting and indeed grouping and exchanging.
Raistlin Majere wrote:"I" cannot be defined as "qo", "mo" or othere made-up words, cause it infact indicates a personality... It is the ego ("εγώ" in greek) that makes a person think that it is different from other person. It does not equal to personality.
Again, that 'person' exists is still to be seen. And personalities as demonstrated above are subject to change, both continuous and discontinuous.
Personality is a group of qualities, some of them are common to many people.
'A group', that's pretty vague don't you think, which one's?
The "I" is the quality that mostly describes a person. The one-two things that make him take the one decision and not the other..
Well, it's accepted thought—yet hard to prove—that if a man were praesented the same choice the next day, he would choice differently very likely.

So by this limitation (not definition) it is assumable that indeed the 'I' does not exist or at least only instantaneously and exchanges for another every second.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#43 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 14:03

You consider that if something changes, it exists instantly..
That's a wrong approach.. I consider myself being me, despite the fact that my opinions change from time-to-time...
Universe is not a clock. You could say that it consists of planets being born and destroyed and changes through time..
But universe's constant change doesn't mean that it exists in moments universe1,2,3,4...
People are changing and so does their ego, their "I".. This doesn't mean that their "I" existed for one moment to be replaced by a new "I".
In order to define "I" you need to add content to the term. By summing up some values, you create a new term and not a circular definition.
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#44 Post by Kyhdän kanssa tuomme » 12 Oct 2009 14:31

Raistlin Majere wrote:You consider that if something changes, it exists instantly..
No, if it changes into some thing else it exists instantly.

It depends on the object in quaestion, consider us to have a cuboid like this one, and let's say that the value of the length l(t) is a function dependent on time. Let's make it l(t) = sin (2pi t) + 1.5 or a sine that moves between 0.5 and 2.5. Let's say the other dimensions are fixed at 1.5 for simplicity's sake. Effectively I just created a mathematical description of a cuboid that stretches in and out through time like an accordion

Now at some points in time (1,3,5,7...) the length will be 1.5, at those points we have a cube, the cube exists instantaneously as as we move time ahead or back, it's not a cube any more.

However, the cuboid exists infinitely and continuously, as for all times, the form we have still meets the definition of a cuboid. But not of a cube.

The point is that your definitions of the 'I' entail a characteristic and fixed personality, something immutable. Though 'an I' keeps existing, it is not the same I any more. The unique I only exists instantaneously as our personalities are always mutating, albeit in quite small amounts.
That's a wrong approach.. I consider myself being me, despite the fact that my opinions change from time-to-time...
Universe is not a clock. You could say that it consists of planets being born and destroyed and changes through time..
Yes, you consider yourself to have an 'I', but people have made errant considerations in the past. I ask of you to prove that you or any person has this 'I' and above all first define it.

My stance is that this 'I' does not exist, but rather at every instant a new 'I' exists which inherits the memories of the older one's thus granting the llusion of this 'I' to exist independent from time.

Or as Berkely viewed it. There is really no way to check if time isn't just one instant, just one moment in time existing and all your memories up to this point 'never really happened' but just exist in this instant. Or alternatively, the block time model (aeternalism) which holds that all points in time move parallel and time has no 'arrow' and doesn't move. (Which is also the Islamic perspective by some interpretations).

In the end, if time has an arrow, is instantaneous or if all times occur parallel is impossible to test for the observer.
But universe's constant change doesn't mean that it exists in moments universe1,2,3,4...
You mean that time is discrete and hops? The quantified-time model?
People are changing and so does their ego, their "I".. This doesn't mean that their "I" existed for one moment to be replaced by a new "I".
Your definition pretty much implies it as you said:

1: 'I's' are unique.
2: Personalities and choices are part of the 'I'.

As one would make other choices and has another personality at another point in time. From the unitarity of the 'I's', surely it cannot be the same I then if choices and personality define it?
In order to define "I" you need to add content to the term. By summing up some values, you create a new term and not a circular definition.
Still, you have only defined it dependent on 'of a person' and phrases like that, and the term 'person' is meaningless if the 'I' is not understood in meaning?
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#45 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 14:43

It depends on the object in quaestion, consider us to have a cuboid like this one, and let's say that the value of the length l(t) is a function dependent on time. Let's make it l(t) = sin (2pi t) + 1.5 or a sine that moves between 0.5 and 2.5. Let's say the other dimensions are fixed at 1.5 for simplicity's sake. Effectively I just created a mathematical description of a cuboid that stretches in and out through time like an accordion
Now at some points in time (1,3,5,7...) the length will be 1.5, at those points we have a cube, the cube exists instantaneously as as we move time ahead or back, it's not a cube any more.
However, the cuboid exists infinitely and continuously, as for all times, the form we have still meets the definition of a cuboid. But not of a cube.
It's still the same object. It only changes shape in time... But having memory of itself, continues being the first cube. It probably kept the "I" in it while changing....and added something in this "I" each moment that it change.

If we had two cube, each one would have its own "I"
Both would change but would have memory of themselves, thus only adding to their "I"s and never removing from them...Changing cause of experiences as time passes... Resulting in new "I"s that are the continual of the start, but still define them the same as the first "I", and keep them different from each other..


---------------
"I" am the lawyer of the "I"
I can keep speaking nonsense and still make sense....
That's me... That's "I"

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#46 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 14:44

This thread caught alight
"How easily the mind can be turned to hate from a place of fear - an instinctive, natural, protective response. Instead of focusing on the things that unite us, we focus on what divides us."

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#47 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 14:45

At least it serves as a spam thread :lol: :lol:
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#48 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 14:47

Aiming for 1k+ by christmas :D
"How easily the mind can be turned to hate from a place of fear - an instinctive, natural, protective response. Instead of focusing on the things that unite us, we focus on what divides us."

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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#49 Post by Raistlin Majere » 12 Oct 2009 14:49

I must try to catch up with you.... You have almost 300 posts more than me...

I'll use this post to reach you :twisted:
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Re: Reincarnation: What would you love to come back as?

#50 Post by Mackasfour » 12 Oct 2009 14:55

You will fail epicly
"How easily the mind can be turned to hate from a place of fear - an instinctive, natural, protective response. Instead of focusing on the things that unite us, we focus on what divides us."

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